11/08/11 UPDATE: URL of video has changed, links and embeds updated accordingly. If you've tweeted this page before, please consider doing so again for the newness.
Episode 59, which was inspired by the Film Critic Hulk/Arkham City blowup but heads off into MUCH bigger territory than just that one incident, is now available to be viewed by ALL audiences HERE. (embedded after the jump)
REMINDER! The "special topic" for Episode 60 referred to at the end there is the "Mailbag," so go HERE or HERE and ask your question if you haven't already - asking will close on November 12th!
140 comments:
Intriguing. I do agree that a lot of gaming culture (including journalists) are, to be blunt, intellectual cowards. Too many people have always wanted to have their cake and eat it when it comes to the medium, but now that the Supreme Court has passed it decision we should grow a thicker skin, a bigger pair, and a bigger set of brains.
And instead, too many people still have the same gutless, juvenile, overly defensive attitude they've always had. I've seen very few games worthy of being called mature and thoughtful (oddly enough, most of my examples being JRPGs from Square's golden age) since gaming narratives have an ugly habit of also wanting to have it both ways and end up being schizophrenic as a result. Seriously, good dialogue doesn't automatically make Bioware's repertoire Harlan Ellison or George R.R. Martin.
Until we actually grow a pair I think outside Nintendo gaming has yet to show that it's worthy of being taken seriously on the same level as books, films, or even comics.
It's nice of you to advise that the video game culture should grow up. When can we expect you and your show to do the same?
You have a show on a puerile website with atrocious presentation and foolish predilections to integrity. How can someone take you seriously when you bang on wearing various Nintendo merchandise along to an asinine story? The average person isn't going to see your points; they're not bothered to look beyond the idiotic trappings with which you dress up your platform. Whatever thoughtful commentary you produce is swallowed up by abysmal production and awful presentation. Why do you do this? Why do you undermine yourself at every turn? It seems to me like you can't ever take a step forward without immediately shooting yourself in the foot.
Very well put, and I commend you for shining light on a big problem in the gaming community. Many may not like to hear it, but it's the truth, and I'm glad to see you had the guts to say it.
As for the story, there'll always be the haters. It didn't intrude into your discussion, so I had no problem with it whatsoever. Keep up the good work! (Though I do hope you can find a better site than ScrewAttack to host your show someday.)
Bob you need to take another look at Metal Gear Solid 4. It is one of the only "recent" games that is a shooter with morality as a key plot point.
We should think hard about criticism? We should be more mature?
Says the person who made two videos defending a video game because he happens to like it even though it was a commercial disaster. (Other M.)
Damns an entire genre (FPS.) and series (Metroid Prime.) because it doesn't match his personal taste.
Then creates a stereotypical character so he can further mock fans of said genre he hates and portrait them as lesser intellectuals. (Anti thinker.)
What do I want from the medium? Who cares, I don't decide, neither do you. If it sells, it sells. I've come to terms with that but obviously Moviebob hasn't.
Wait, hold on a moment, hold up. Just wait a damn fuckin' minute here.
A couple of weeks ago when you made the post titled "Is Batman: Arkham City This Years Other M?".
Your initial occams razor reaction to this was, and correct me if I misunderstood your fundamental message, but it was 'well a major thing at the time of Other M's release was a strong reaction concerning the perceived gender roles of the game. Batman also appears to have lopsided gender roles, therefore you would expect the gaming public to have the same reaction to Batman as to Other M....unless something else is going on. Like japanophobia amongs the other critics'
Ok, just so we're on the same page...now that you've played the game and decided that you're not on the same page as Hulk (the gender roles in Batman aren't that lopsided after all), so that lack of a reaction towards Batman is _no longer_ a sympthom of something else, and the point you made back then is therefore rendered moot, and if anybody is a japanophobe their oppinions on batman vs. those of other m can't be used as any kind of evidence of this. Ok.
So now, today, you portray those who criticise the Film Critic Hulks criticism as children throwing a hissy fit because they don't like anything negative being said about something they've, through preconceived notions, made their minds up that they will like. That these people need to grow up, and that they need to stop it with criticisms of sober academic analysis, or wtf. you were calling it.
You get up on your high horse, demean and bemoan those who would dare to verbally attack those criticising this critic before having even played the game.
But, and this is where it gets messed up...you attacked Batman fanboys yourself before they ever said anything, arguing that people who were ok with batmans supposed sexism but not other m's were perhaps japanophobic.
So you went out, preemptively, without having read any of the debates, or any of the oppinions, and decided these things about people who had yet to make any arguments at all, under the assumption that Batman would turn out to be sexist. This is different from the people criticising Hulk under the assumption that batman would turn out _not_ to be sexist...how?
Ok so, in this spiritual growing up you're suggesting that we do, you're just going to pretend like you never made a silly, ill-conceived argument yourself, or admit to being part of the problem....It's everybody else who should grow up, even though you're the f'in _prime_ example of a person who pulls the trigger on blog posts way, way before you have anything worthwhile to say, and in this example ended up making allusions to japanophobia amongst critics who had yet to utter a word?
How in the _hell_ is one thing throwing a hissy fit, and the other not?
And then there's the whole thing about this being the thing that the gaming community always does, except in the case of Other M there really weren't that many people up in arms about others talking about sexism, so there's your f'in example of why this _isn't_ what the community always does. It's a complete and utter strawman that appears designed to lightly skip across the notion that sometimes, people who criticise critics have a point, and sometimes they don't, because that would be a problem for the clairty of your overarching argument: That we need to grow up.
Which I don't disagree with, by the way, but the way in which you twist and turn and twist this little incident to serve your own ends is abhorant and turns your entire discussion and argument into travesty of logic.
This is really bad. You want to talk about this shit, don't do a crazy-ass segway that splits everything you say apart given just slightly closer examination.
Funny thing is I was always been wondering that where was a thought provoking shooter? The best I could come up with was MSG1 :/ If there ever is one I would certainly check it out :D
@Darren
Deus Ex.
The game brings up a lot of thought provoking on humans and the progress of technology.
Corporate stance- Arguing technology should be used to advance society, thus its there right to experiment and demand no restrictions.
Religious- Technology goes against the natural order, causing uprisings, resorting to terrorism.
Self gain- People choosing to become augmented to help get themselves over competitors in business, sports, crime.
Security/war- Bodyguards, Soldiers, Gangsters, Mercs. Willing to self mutilate in gaining vast skills unachievable naturally for clientele, work.
Oh course I know Moviebob wouldn't play this series (Cyberpunk), or the Thief series (Mid evil) Oblivion (RPG) or even Amnesia (Horror) for that matter because he is biased and thinks all FPS games are just Call of Duty. Then turns around and complains ""Why isn't Call of Duty deeeeeep?""
Because Activision know what sells. People (10 million+) want to shoot and will pay. Not listen on the effects of war or want an education lesson and that is OK.
Because that's what video games real purpose is. Entertainment.
Also playing different video games to other people doesn't make you a higher intellectual than others.
Thinking so just makes you a jerk.
With regards to taking the medium seriously, can I just say that bookending what is possibly the most well thought out and eloquent game-related opinion pieces I've seen in a long time with this Ninja stuff is exactly the reason the majority of people I want to show this to won't stick around for longer than a minute or so.
I really don't want to be the prick to tell you how to do your job, especially since I think you've been making a lot of sense both here and in The Big Picture/Escape to The Movies/American Bob, saying some things that have gone far too long without being said.
But you are doing yourself a massive disservice with this tacked on narrative and while I'm sure it has it's fans, it's hugely detracting from the impact of what you're trying to say. Christ, it's not like it would be beyond you to continue it in a separate video series and I'm sure there would be plenty who would watch it.
Just some friendly advice from someone who counts himself as a fan of yours. Please don't go down the route of getting so caught up in your own gimmick that your point becomes totally lost, because you wouldn't be the first to do so.
@Darren
Bioshock, but I've yet to see a shooter do a Full Metal Jacket or Apocalypse Now scenario that actually comments on what the player is doing. Bioshock is more about political theory and beliefs than anything else.
There is plenty of medium/high budgeted games that deals with mature subjects like(Just off the top of my head):
Metro 2033, Metal Gear Solid 1+2+3+4, The Witcher, Bioshock, System Shock, Planescape: Torment, Killer7, Silent Hill, ICO, Half-Life, Gabriel Knight and so on.
If you want thought provoking game, you have to look for them. Just like you have to do with movies and books.
Would they buy it? Not really given the chance, are we, when games like Six Days in Fellujah are canned before we ever get to play them?
WELL THAT WAS BOTH DEEPLY HUMBLING AND A TRULY EXCELLENT PIECE ON GAMING CULTURE.
IF HULK WOULD BE HONEST, HULK WISH HULK TONED DOWN THE ANGER OF THE FIRST PIECE (THAT WAS LARGE PART WHAT THE SECOND PIECE WAS ABOUT) SPECIFICALLY THE PART ABOUT DESIGNERS BEING ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES, BUT HULK'S STANCE STAYS THE SAME. AND YOU DEFINITELY HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD WITH A LOT OF THINGS SURROUNDING THE ISSUE.
HULK IS GOING TO COME BACK WITH A PART 3 TO THE ARTICLE AND WILL BE SURE TO MENTION THIS (IF HULK FORGETS FOR SOME REASON BE SURE REMIND).
OVERALL HULK THINK THAT ASIDE FROM THE FEW CLASSICS THAT REALLY DELVE INTO MORAL COMPLEXITY (SHADOWS OF COLOSSUS ETC) ITSELF, THERE ARE A FEW THAT REALLY DID HAVE SOME KIND OF POINTED CULTURAL CRITICISM. ONE BEING BIOSHOCK AND IT'S VIEW OF OBJECTIVISM. THE OTHER BEING RED DEAD REDEMPTION ODDLY ENOUGH (ALTHOUGH THAT GAME HAS THE CURIOUS HABIT OF THE MAIN STORYLINE NOT MAKING SENSE WHEN YOU SELECT THE EVIL PATH) WHICH ADOPTS THE STANDARD ROCKSTAR PAN-CULTURAL CRITICISM / SATIRE BUT IMBUES WITH SOME NICE WESTERN OVERTONES ABOUT THE "END OF THINGS."
ARE ANY OF THESE TRUE ART? NOT REALLY. THEY HAVE ARTISTIC ELEMENTS BUT HULK THINK THEY A BIG STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
ALSO HULK GONNA HAVE MORE VIDEO GAME PIECES IN THE FUTURE TOO, LIKELY ABOUT STUFF THAT GETS IT RIGHT... HOPEFULLY.
CHEERS MOVIE BOB.
Hmm... I'm not quite to sure what to say, Moviebob, because while your argument has plenty of holes your points are overall correct, at least on a very broad and thin level. Yes, gaming culture is far too defensive for its own good and doesn't like to criticise their own medium unless everyone else is, and the pro-war to anti-war game ratio is a little out-of-whack. However, I'd argue that a lot of the details of what you say are blisteringly wrong or so heavily generalised as to mean nothing.
To start with your first point; defensiveness with the media. Yes, it's a huge problem, as in huge. No major gaming magazine is allowed to give any game lower than a perfect score no matter what, yeah yeah yeah, here's my issue with that argument, or at least an appendix. This isn't just gamers; EVERYONE does it now. Film fans, comic nuts, otakus, and even going outside of the entertainment industries, into religion, politics, philosophy and even something as trivial as whether you use a Mac or a PC, every field and medium has a majority of enthusiasts staunchly defending their own views out of a complete lack of security in their own opinions to let others slide. It's simply human nature to not be wrong, and if you start backing a certain point of view you clash with others; that's a given, but what isn't a given is that you might not be entirely correct. You do it with Nintendo; when's the last piece of negative criticism you said about Nintendo. I do it; I swear by PC gaming and Steam in particular, and I often stick my fingers in my ears and go 'la la la la not listening'. Bill O'Reilly's one complaint with the Republicans is when they aren't Republican enough, yet, support them or not, some of their policies are absolutely nightmarish, as is every political party on every end of the polictical spectrum. It's a failure to be objective and a want to be right, because to acknowledge the flaws in our own argument is to show weakness. Yes, this isn't really a defense, but I don't think we should point fingers at gaming culture until we've looked around to how everyone else does it and say "We can do better than this." Then and only THEN will gaming be deserving of the recognition we all strive for it to have.
As for where it came from in gaming, it might be from multiple sources; after all, this defensiveness is no new thing. Remember the Bit Wars? It's already happened, this defensiveness, and we still haven't learnt. To be honest, with multi-platform games being so prevelant, the console wars today are really stupid anyway, with everything simply coming down to personal preference. I think it's simply been bred into us; a lot of gaming magazines make their money on advertising, and who gives them the most ads? Games companies, and if a magazine is notorious for being quite negative, then they won't be as intruiging a business prospect. So they keep rating their games the same high scores no matter what, and it's become a part of gaming culture now. At least, that's what I think part of it came from; you might prove me wrong, I don't know.
CONTINUED BELOW
Regarding military porn taking a hard look at terrorist activities without being straight-up pro-war propaganda, I recently saw the concept footage for Rainbow Six: Patriots, and it looks like it's making a shot for starting a mature conversation in the gaming community about terrorism, terrorists, and the war on terror. It's coming out of Ubisoft: Montreal, so maybe they're able to take a step back from 9/11 in a way that most Americans can't.
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/target-gameplay-demonstration/723622
And again, casual vs hardcore is another example of this. I think the solution is simple enough; if everyone considers casual gaming to not count as gaming, why not just consider it it's own entity? It's certainly different enough, with completely different conventions and practises within the industry. In fact, I remember this also happening with, oh I don't know, anime? Otakus scream like bitches if you chuck anime in the same boat as Western animation, and it became considered it's own entity. In fact, further up the scale, cartoons and live action TV. We still consider the two completely different entities, but they're both connected inseperably. Hell, TV programmes are such really short films aren't they? No, that's ridiculous, because they're both completely different industries. Same with gaming; why not call casual games what they are; different? It doesn't invalidate them in any way, in fact it'd probably help their reputation by tons, and have gaming as a whole be a 'super-media' as it were.
Finally, while I would agree with the point that anti-war games are in very short supply, I don't buy the argument of 'would we buy them if they did exist?' Partially because I wouldn't call it that relevant to the rest of the video anyway, but mostly because this isn't gamers going 'we want more games about war please, om nom nom' but more dumb executives not giving people variety. The point about film's reaction and reflection to the War on Terror is correct, but want to know where else that didn't happen? Books. Read a modern book about the War on Terror. Or how about most television? Turn on TV right now. What is it about?
"Gee, aren't we Americans swell, and ain't those nasty terrorists all dirty backwards pakkis who are all Muslims and too dumb and one-dimensional to understand the true Western way?" It's a disgrace, yes, and again gaming isn't fully at fault, but I'm not saying this is an excuse by any stretch. I think we just have to remember that this is happening in other places too.
CONTINUED BELOW
Though, mind you, it's not as if audiences are stupid. We know what's going on; it's just that the executives don't. Call of Duty 4 (and Modern Warfare 2 to a lesser but still noticable extent) was praised for it's captivating story, and had a strong message about the dehumanising effect war has on people, which people pretty much agreed with. What do the executives see? The guns, the explosions and the stakes of the story; people blowing up the world. They didn't get the subtext. And that happens plenty, because what will draw your attention more; a man in a dark room who is quite clearly mental, or lots of bright explosions and flashing lights? It's just the games industry copying the superficial elements of something that's already popular and forgetting all the subtext that made it special. Idiotically, it seems that Infinity Ward themselves are doing it now, but herp a derp, that's gaming.
This reminds me of the time (between the late 80's & early 90's)when CARTOONS were the big-time punching bag of the mainstream media.
At onetime cartoons were made solely for the adult audience; with jokes, messages and imagery all aimed a said audience.
However... When cartoons moved from the theatre to the living room things began to change.
It started with the "Hays code" (1930-1968) that let to the MPAA rating system; Next thing ya know cartoons had to have meaning, manners and MORALS.
By the 90's every cartoon had to "teach you something"; It got to the point where cartoons became not worth watching and many long time watchers tuned out.
Does that in anyway sound familiar?
Are we so "in love" with our chosen media that we've become blind to mischief?
When do WE exercise discipline... When it's playing with a KNIFE or when it's playing with a LIGHTER?
Or am I "OVERTHINKING" it?
to anonymous: (maybe u should grow up and use an actualy internet id?)
I dont like defending people because that's borderline creepy and tends to devolve into sexualized hyperworship
but this is a show about games. this guy is a hardcore nerd gamer who harkens back to nes era of games. his entire platform is adddressed to said gamers and so the style of said content reflects that
it's not immaturity or lack of growing up - it's a choice of style
Well, I think we can all agree that Bob has at the very least attracted an audience of smart and opinionated thinkers willing to argue their points further than with just "fckue you bitch! First!" Its very rare and very exciting to find this level of cogent (relatively...) debate on a video game blog. Maybe I've spent too much time on thatguywitheglasses.com that any hint of rationality or objectivity renews my respect for audience participation. Kudos to you, the fans.
This embedded video is poorly optimized just saying...it's making my comp run at 90% CPU.
I completely agree with most of what you have said in this week's episode. I had one thing to add, though. I'm not trying to absolve the intellectual adolescents in gaming culture of their culpability when it comes to why we don't have serious, blockbuster games about topics like terrorism, but should a game be made, CNN and Fox News would jump all over it, running scare stories about how your children are playing terrorism simulators. Just another thing to think about.
a poorly designed webpage is a optimization problem, not a content problem
Lol, sometime i dont know wether these commenters actually watch the video or if they just make angry posts. I will say some of them seem to have picked up a thesaurus as well! its very well worded pointless rage, but pointless rage none the less. i would point out the large flaws in your argument (whining) but your either trolls or to hard-set in the belief you are right for it to matter.
I read a lot of books.. and find a typical common language unsuitable for analytical thought (yes, I talk like this in real life- it turns people of typically)
I'm not addressing anything about the right or wrong of this bob character. he is prejudicial in many things and not so in others. irrelevant. I was addressing a minor quibble that a person was angered at the "immaturity" of the design aesthetics of the creative material
and yes, I watch all the content, but like most online content, I disagree with most of it
hammbrone, no one posts things on an online forum, especialy the bottom feeder of online forums, comments of a blog, except to whine, complain, and peddle their biases and stupidity as the god given truth
I'm no different and deep down, ur probly not either
*off
misterprickly, u also forget that politicians dont actually care about whether a game is actually banned or vilified. its just a sleight of hand to distract people from their corruption theft and incompetent governance
shadowhikari: agreed . scapegoating the outsides does make good entertainment though (just ask the muslims)
@ Hammbone
Not sure if your response is to me, but I feel like it might be, so I'll respond as if.
I can't promise you I'll change my mind if you respond and point out what you believe are large flaws in my argument, but I can promise you that I'll seriously consider what you're going to say.
I have nothing against being proven wrong; in fact, on an intellectual level (even though I _want_ to be right, because I take pride in my intellect), I recognize that if I'm wrong it is much, much better to admit it than to try to weasel out or otherwise stick to my initial claims.
And really, I'm probably wrong at least 10% of the time(might be a lot more, but at least 10%), so unless I try to recognize those 10% by discussion with others, I'm not going to get any smarter.
I realize not everybody on the internet takes this approach...it's psychologically counter-intuitive (most people feel their oppinions and brand are almost physically a part of them due to some quirk of human conciousness), but it's the intellectually honest approach to a discussion, so it does happen.
Even so...
@ The Lord Doctor Master
Yup, it's really hard to get a good conversation going at the bottom of a blog post, but it happens, and sometimes it's quite worthwhile. That doesn't mean you shouldn't at least _try_, tho, if you feel you have something interesting to add.
Wow... a lot of you people have very poor listening skills.
He said that most, not all games are army porn.
Yes, there are some good ones like Deus Ex and Metal Gear. However, they are vastly the minority.
How many games out there are just "shoot the non-americans to win"? Call of Juarez, I'm looking at you!
His point was that there were more thinking movies about 9/11 then there was war glorification. While on the gaming side; any thinking games about war are drowned out by all of the army porn.
And guess what? Both movies and games are made for entertainment! *shocking gasp!*
I think Aiddon put it the best. There are way too many people in the gaming community that are intellectual cowards.
@GameOverthinker
Love the show and I for one like the fact that you do something more with it then just you talking while I look at water or some simplistic cartoon version of you in front of a podium or a computer.
Can't wait for GO vs the ninjas episode!
Cheers!
well army porn is better than actual porn, namely anything made from japan with a woman in it (just look at their anime sometime...)
mads, I dont think there are any intellectual cowards in gaming. it's a game - for fun - nobody really cares (and they shouldnt)
as for the point that there should be nuanced and intellectual arguments over the interweb. its human nature that when identification is anonymized, that we say terrible things just to say terrible things. don't believe me, look at youtube commments sometime. or the death threats that muslims lob at entertainers who have the audacity to poke fun at their much vaunted religion of morons and fanatics
which means it is human nature to be hateful and moronic, and that it is only social norms that prevent us from reveal what bastards we really are (read about the "noble" savage and the Hobbsian social contract sometime)
but yes, pining for a true intellectual discourse is a utopian ideal, but in america idiocy is priased and rewarded. I gave up on being an open minded person a long time ago - u probly should too
halollet,kudos, though, on the point that movies and tv shows and video games are about entertainment. that pretty mu h makes most of moviebob's rants pointless and irrelevant
mads............. damn
props = )
@ Aiddon
"And instead, too many people still have the same gutless, juvenile, overly defensive attitude they've always had. I've seen very few games worthy of being called mature and thoughtful..."
Not to detract from your main point (that gaming culture needs to be far less defensive) but I'm thinking about where else that statement can be applied? Hmmmm... how about EVERYWHERE?!
No, really, how is this any different from any other media? I said it in my earlier post, but what difference is there in gaming culture's defensiveness than, say, otakus screaming like bitches when you say anime is for kids, or when you tell a hardcore film nut that you don't mind the Star Wars prequels, or even simply telling someone who uses a Mac that you use a PC? Why does just gaming need to aspire to be like that? This is not exclusive to us. This is a generation-wide problem. Hell; if you throw politics and religion into the mix it's a species-wide problem.
@ Hallolet
Clearly my listening skills are worse than you imagined; I've watched the video twice now and I honestly can't remember why he brought the subject up; the rest of the video was about gaming culture needing to stop being so defensive and whiny and just grow up, where did the lack of Full Metal Solid (see what I did there I'm hilarious) come from?
As for your point itself, remember that it isn't as if video games are somehow behind other media; in fact, the majority of books were beyond worse than gaming not too long ago and they're still horrendously in the mindset of 'smash those no-good non-white madmen in straw huts or whatever they live in'. Same with television; you don't immediately think of 24 when somebody says the words "Terrorism in fiction" for no reason whatsoever. While not excusing games, I think we need to remember that we aren't the only ones at fault.
"Yes, it's THAT kind of show!"
That quote pisses me off, because it didn't ALWAYS used to be like that. :/
"Krum"? What, we're talking Conan the Barbarian now?
So, is the medallion the only part that's made of the antimetal or whatever? Or is the chain necklace also made of that?
Also, I'm a little behind, wha'ts going on with Batman: Arkham City, aside from the fact that it's a sequel to an awesome game and has twice as many Batman villains as before?
Also, where the HELL did the Overthinker gain wielding skills? And the people walking by watching him recording this is probably wondering "What the Hell is he doing?"
"FilmCriticHulk"? Never heard of him... And I'm not entirely convinced I should check him out...
OMG, this is just like that "Gender Games" video on The Big Picture, where you once again talk about how gamers once again overreact to constructive criticisms about sexism, racism, etc. In that they all go "STFU, STOP SPOILING OUR FUN!!!!"
Yeesh...
MovieBob DOES bring up a good point, though, since he's an avid comic book reader, he KNOWS just how low Batman and comic book characters in general can drop. So this isn't really about what's in the game, it's about the immature gamers REACTIONS to these kinds of things, whether they be valid or not.
I agree with Bob, the rating system for games is VERY broken, and sometimes I see a rating that just makes me slap my head at how idiotic it is...
...One pointless hammer pounding sequence that adds absolutely nothing and only serves as being incredibly distracting later...
Ah-HA! Back to this again! Bob's right, we can't be automatically defensive anymore, the debate is over, so now we HAVE to take a long, hard look at ourselves and address the problems games have!
Slow motion hammer pound, again, doesn't add much of anything, except reminding us that you're doing some story in the midst of rambling about video games. Woo-hoo.
I LOVE this call-out by Bob when people say "Take our hobby seriously!" What they're basically saying is "STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT OUR HOBBY! LEAVE US ALONE! WE WANT OUR GAMES LIKE THIS! STFU, LET US PLAY ARE GAMES!!!!!!!" Or something to that effect. In other words, they DON'T want to be looked down upon, but they DON'T want to act like a grown-up, take responsibility, or do any actual WORK that comes with being taken seriously.
Although, I have a suggestion for those who want to be taken seriously: USE SPELLCHECK!
STOP! ...Hammer time... again.
Oh yeah... Comic Books... You know, we don't HAVE to be like comic books. We could actually TRY to be intellectual with our games... And that DOES NOT MEAN THE GAME WON'T BE FUN! Friggin' morons...
We've been saying people should play video games? Since when? It makes sense to have people playing games so that we could be taken seriously and people could better understand us... But is that really what we want? Because to me, it seems like we like being gamers because somehow that makes us seem special, and thus "superior" to everyone else... Really. :/
UGH! Again with the hammer pounding. That confused me for a moment, because I thought the hammer-pound was supposed to represent "our" reaction. Geez.
You know what? I agree with Bob here, too! If we're going to continuously react like this to these sorts of things, I don't think we deserve any respect! Why respect someone with a maturity level of 5 and a spelling/grammer level of 2?
Hmm, 9/11? Oh yeah, people are going to be pissed...
I never really thought about it, but thinking back to one of the Overthinker's earlier episodes... Yeah, there HAVE been a lot more movies about the sketchiness and corruptness behind the "war on terror" that were better than the empty-minded, wish-fulfillment movies about gunning down Muslims and/or brown-skinned people. Hence why Conservatives said that "Hollywood is run by Liberals" and "Gaming is more patriotic"...
Oh... Oh yeah... I see where this is going.
It's not like we shouldn't have one or the other, we need to find the right balance for these kinds of games, you know?
Bottom line: Gaming community, grow the fuck up. And I mean REALLY grow the fuck up. ...I'll grow up, one of these days.
That's a badass-looking sword. Looks... slightly Arabian.
The most annoying thing about the entire discussion about Arkham City was how many people just refused to acknolwedge that there might even be a problem there (rather than: maybe there is one but I don't care or think other things are important).
When if you reverse the situation, put the shoe on the other foot and have Batman be greeted with "We're gonna get you, homo" (as opposed to "We're gonna get you, freak", because people don't care about being called a freak, but care about being called homo-) in nearly every encounter obviously and naturally people would be bewildered by it. So why is it not ok to insult Batman, but it is ok to insult Catwoman?
Just a random curiosity but did they patch the whole 'bitch' thing? I just finished the entire game and took the time to spend as much time freeroaming as catwoman and I heard the term bitch used to describe here a grand total of 5 times. 4 of those were from Two-Face, of those 4 2 were from cutscenes and 2 were the same line recycled during the boss fight with him, the 5th time was a random enemy who said it once but it came out of nowhere since none of the enemies ever said that up to that point (while free roaming post game credits)
So yeah, did they patch it to make the occurence of it much more infrequent?
oh and on topic, very good piece bob
@Anon
I'd laugh honestly, because then Batman then beats them down.
In real life everyone cheers for the trash talker to loose.
I don't think Batman would honestly care either whenever someone calls him a homo, he honestly would expect it after studying criminals for years there generally not nice people.
Catwoman would know this too, that when she happens to beat and rob these people they'll do the same.
Wait a minute, its all clear now.
Criminals aren't nice people!
I knew that when my family worked in the judicial system. I knew that when I visited prisons. Yet this doesn't seem to get through to Moviebob or Hulkcritic that maybe, just maybe, escaped prisoners will use bad language.
But instead Moviebob uses it to make a sensational title on his blog before he even played the game but he read about it, on a blog posted by a person who poses as a fictional character...
Then makes a post stating he believes it was an conspiracy against Glorious Japanese gaming that Metroid Other M was poorly received, not even considering the game is just not enjoyable enough to sell to a mass audience. It didn't sell well in Japan either...
Because the game was on the Wii right? That's a reason why it got lower scores! Actually a quick look at Metacritic shows a lot of Wii games have some of the highest scores this generation! Maybe Other M is just isn't deserving of a high score...
Oh oh! It went From First Person to Third Person, that must of played into a biased effect! Actually no. In fact the game was getting a ton of hype from its first reveal at E3. Because the series was returning to third person and done by a developer know for making great third person actions games.
Its just the end product didn't turn out well hence the massive backlash. This game has no excuses, it was given a bigger push than the Prime series.
Bigger development budget, Bigger advertisement budget. It had everything set up for it but the end product didn't deliver.
Happens all the time in any other medium. Just look at Scott Pilgrim vs the World movie. Massive budget, Massive advertisement, box office bomb.
Again, for someone who tells us we should grow up, his not acting mature at all. Especially when he didn't research for himself before making the blog post and then rambles on about a conspiracy that doesn't exist.
For someone called the gameoverthinker...his not doing any real thinking.
I appreciate that Bob took the time to connect the dots, but even so it borders on self-parody that this episode boils down to:
Q: Is this Batman game sexist?
A: FPS army games are bad.
Also I'm noticing a pattern where the storyline is always "A plot device creates a reason for Bob to stand around and overthink until the next plot device is ready." Why do the storylines at all if it's this clumsy to link them to the actual premise of the video?
Ok Bob, seriously, when can I expect you to go beat some ninjas? I honestly don't care about your insight at this point, it's all the same blend of vanity, pretentiousness and rehashed topics.
Also, I get this weird, funny feeling that everytime you say "we", you actually mean "you/us". Huh, I wonder why...
What I care about is that cool new magical sword you got.
(Yes, I enjoy the "adventure" part of the show FAR MORE then I do the egocentrical "analysis" part)
@Fox
If he dropped the gameoverthinker to make what his doing now, he knows no one would watch it. T
That's why he fills the overthinker with his so called ""story.""
He can't compete with people like freddiew. No ones going to give up watching his content for Bobs.
He knows this, he also knows his bread and butter is in video game commentary. But he can only do the ""FPS is bad!"" argument for so long.
@ shadowhikari
Dude, I don't know what the hell you are talking about, the story is great.
You know, I'm surprised at just how many people COMPLETELY missed the point Bob was trying to make, and instead, calls him out on his apparent lack of credibility by bringing up how he likes Metroid: Other M and continuously bashes FPS's.
Give me a freaking break. :/
lol a comments section of a blog seldom extols the virtues and vices of the central issue
@Smashmatt202: I always get his point, I just think he goes about making that point in a repetitive, derivative manner. (I'm now watching the show for the trainwreck factor.)
When your only tool is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. When your only rhetorical tools are condemning anti-NES bias, first-person shooters, and immaturity in the fandom, all your arguments start to blend together.
@fox
""Dude, I don't know what the hell you are talking about, the story is great.""
Sure it is, if you have low standards.
I bet you think the special effects are top notch as well.
@Smashmatt202
""You know, I'm surprised at just how many people COMPLETELY missed the point Bob was trying to make, and instead, calls him out on his apparent lack of credibility by bringing up how he likes Metroid: Other M and continuously bashes FPS's
Give me a freaking break. :/""
What did we exactly get wrong or miss here?
MovieBob makes blog post saying...
Will "Arkham City" Be This Year's "Other M?"
Then makes conspiracy theory post on why other M is lower rated in the Batman Arkham City blog post.
"""Other M," meanwhile, was a Wii game (strike one) doing the retro-throwback thing after the series had spent three prior console installments in a well-regarded FPS series (strike two) and... egh, look... I'm not going to go saying that people who GENUINELY hated it or were GENUINELY offended by it were "wrong" or un-genuine in their opinions, but I get a real sense that at least SOME of that shitstorm was the result of folks in and around the Western gaming scene having finally found a 'weak one among the herd' to single out and vent long pent-up issues against Japanese developers in general and Nintendo/Team Ninja specifically. Just an observation/opinion.""
Makes a video that was suppose to talk about sexism in games, instead calls us immature (LOL) because we disagree and then ends the segment, surprised, complaining that Call of Duty isn't deeeeeeep like movies... (different medium formats)
Give us a freaking break and actually read and watch what he makes.
@The Lord Doctor Master
""lol a comments section of a blog seldom extols the virtues and vices of the central issue""
What issue? That we disagree that Arkham City isn't really as serious as Moviebob tried to make us all believe?
Remember, person who makes stereotype character in his show tells us to act mature. Yeah.
@ shadowhikari
"Will "Arkham City" Be This Year's 'Other M?' "
...Bob said that? Must have missed that part... Regardless, I see the point Bob's ultimately trying to make, that people should stop overreacting to people pointing out a possible flaw in a video game, regardless of whether or not it's true.
Was it supposed to be about sexism in Arkham City? Really, he did address that, and he pretty much said it wasn't worth addressing. In fact, that's the whole point. The reaction to this one guy's impressions of the game was so damn overblown when it didn't need to be.
@ shadowhikari
LOL no dude, of course I don't think the special effects are great. I don't WANT them to be great. If I want special effects, I'd go watch Michael Bay or James Cameron or something. Nor do I think it's the internet's equivalent of Hamlet or Monty Python (giving a tragic and a comical exemple, just to cover all the bases). I find the "story part" great because it has that fuzzy warm feeling of a low budget geeky show. I also find it deliciously unpretentious and, in that unpretention, actually pretty well though out.
Yes. I think that a plot that revolves around a grumpy, slightly overweight geek who goes all man hunter on video game characters that are leaking from some weirdass dimensional gate into our world pretty darn good.Yes, I realize it's not original, but I don't think it needs to be.
I'm not trying to win a debate about this, mind you. I can empathize with people who don't like it/don't care for it/want the old show back. However, I haven't had the time to keep up with my gaming habit for years now, to the point where I actually think I just lost the gusto for it. And this show actually manages to give me back some of that oldschool gaming excitement. So yeah, if I was given the choice, I wouldn't want the "old Game Overthinker show" back.
@smashmatt
"...Bob said that? Must have missed that part... "
Here you go:
http://gameoverthinker.blogspot.com/2011/10/will-arkham-city-be-this-years-other-m.html
Bob-
Thank you.
That is all.
-V
I couldn't agree with you more. The only place where i would disagree with you is that while its succsessors are little more than army porn, I do think that COD 4 has aspirations above that, which should be commended. Though I imagine games would have an even more the Truffaut quote "there is no such thing as an anti-war movie"
Hrmm. I have two questions for either Bob, or anyone else who feels like answering them:
1. If "army-porn" games can be arbitrarily dismissed as vapid and pointless, what about games like Q-bert and Pac-Man? At least the army-porn games try to have a story of some kind, and while on the whole I find Pac-Man much more fun than most brown and gray realisti shooters, games like Call of Duty 4 still occasionally use the game's interactivity to surprise me with a really clever sequence commenting on, say, the disturbing dehumanizing effect of war. I'd say for the Gunship level alone that makes Call of Duty 4 more "artistic" than any arcade-era game if we're judging solely by explicit, story-based meaning as the video implies. Doesn't this also mean games like Super Mario Bros 3, The Legend of Zelda, and Kirby Super Star can't be considered art either, because their stories are so simplistic that they may as well not exist?
2. At what point did film become art? We need to keep in mind that video games are only about forty years old, whereas movies have been shown in theaters since the 1900s. Several of the propaganda-esque army films Bob used as examples were from the 1950s whereas films like Full Metal Jacket and Apocalypse now were only made decades later; in the same amount of time video games have progressed from being barely characterized pixels to the present state of affairs, where in my mind there's a fantastic variety of games with several works I'd define as "art" across all genres, even in the "army porn" games. My point is, if we're comparing film to games as artistic mediums, and it took film eight decades to start making "deep" war films and two decades more for such films to become the standard, as Bob says, and video games are beginning produce "deep" games in only four decades, and film was considered an art as early as two decades into its existence (emergence of German expressionism, the Oscars, other arbitrary things)...at what point do videogames become art? Or maybe trying to specifically define an entire medium as something rather nebulous, let alone compare it to a completely different medium with a completely different history and rate of progression, isn't really fair.
Just sayin'.
smpoza: none of the above games are really art. its just that the traditional gamers arent fans of the realistic, gritty, ART style of the call of duty games and their ilk. make it the same game but put in sonic and mario palette swaps, and these gamers will drool
movies were art basicly from the beginning. the edison pictures were pretty good, as were some of the old black and whites as well as the stuff by hitchcock and with humphrey bogart.
the mediums are different - people stare at a screen, and tend to prefer good actors and nice story and visuals for movies. games- people dont really care if its art - as long as its fun
plus they tend to draw different creative types. director versus lead programmer. guess who is more concerned with story and creative fidelity?
some games I'd consider to be art, to disagree with mr ebert. the bioshock series of course, and some of the cinematics in halo are quite moving. I really dont count indie games and shadow of collosus/ico because those were precreated wit hteh artistic style more important than the gameplay
sorry for typos. its 5 in the morning I just woke up and I'm lazy
@smpoza
This should sum things up nicely:
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/narrative-mechanics
Bob, thank you for saying everything you have said in this episode. With a few exceptions, I agree, and while I may disagree on where some of those exceptions are, I think most gamers need to grow up, and while in the past, I have approached your work critically assuming your version of growing up wasn't the same as mine, you have proven to be an exception to the largely immature image hardcore gamers give themselves.
I may get alot of hate for this, but, that Hulk guy-- he's a writer, and he likes to delve into deep issues. I don't care whether it's warranted or not, and thanks to my budget, I will not be able to find that out, and I don't care that 'this is the internet', the fact people reacted so profusely when they heard their game had sexism (read: WASN'T SEXIST), well, it disturbs me.
I can't say more about that, but I also agree with the overall FPS argument you made in the end... with one exception. Many people disliked its campaign from what I've read, but Battlefield 3 attempts to take a mature approach to the 'War on Terror'. It's not perfect, but it's not glorified in the least, and I'm not going to tell you to go out of your way to play it, but if you find time, you should look into it. If I liked BC2's campaign for its overall lightheartedness, this game offers a polar opposite standpoint, at one point where you shoot your own commanding officer. While other games of the genre have riveting moments too, this is the first to, albeit more lightly that I'd desire, really touch on the politics of where you're fighting.
If my stories ever get turned into games, even if I have to put together a shoddy, low budget version of everything in Gamemaker with stock sprites and no production value, I can only hope that the community doesn't come knocking on my door with death threats because of the narrative choices I made, and the overall, indirect commentary about gaming culture I'd be sending.
Completely agreed with this episode.
If there anything I hate about gaming culture, is how horribly immature it all is. "Console war?" What type of bullshit is that? When gaming had finally reached its larger crowd, gamers bitched.
When left 4 dead 2 was announce for release a year after the first game, Gamers bitched. When diablo 3 decided to have a rainbow at the end of a water fall because that is how light work. Gamers bitched.
When consoles reduce prices, gamers bitch. When an exclusive is no longer exclusive, gamers bitch. When HoN went free to play. Gamers bitched.
Man-child seems to describe the majority of the metal state of many gamers. Real intellectual mature themed games? Needs blood and sex in it for it to be "mature". Lets not even get started with xbox live or PSN.
I think that is another issue. Games seem to ENCOURAGE being ass hat and immature. How Cliffy B described how you can save replays of times you "pwned" your friends, and play it over and over again as a feature.
Tell me, when was the last time you recorded a basket ball game where you beat one of your friends over and over again every time they came over. If you say more then once, your an asshole, and you probably wont be friends for long. Yet gaming seems to completely accept this as a normal.
Not that you would use this for real friends, just e-penis between "clans" and "guilds" to show how "uber1337" they are.
I don't think I met many "hardcore gamers" I particular liked in real life. Right now I live an an apartment located to several colleges. about a 10/90 percent split, I could easily say that 90% of the "young adults" who are proud of being a hardcore gamer, and are sadly trying to get into the game development field are usually rude, obnoxiousness, competitive, ego driven, ass holes. The ones who actually talk anyway. A lot of them are quite and keep to themselves. Usually are ,male, white, and over weight. So you can probably guess the maturity for our near "future developers."
@ Smashmatt202
"...Bob said that? Must have missed that part... Regardless, I see the point Bob's ultimately trying to make, that people should stop overreacting to people pointing out a possible flaw in a video game, regardless of whether or not it's true."
Yes, Bob said that, and right now he seems to be ignoring that he said it. It's a few weeks back, go read it if you want.
And you know what? I don't disagree that sometimes gamers overreact. My point is, Bob's Arkham City/Other M post was a bloody giant overreaction if he thinks people are overreacting to Hulks comments.
He says we consistently throw hissy fits though, when he himself has just thrown a massive one by his own definition and refuses to apologize for it even as he tries to call the rest of us out, which is fucking retarded. Its double standards, and it needs pointing out, that if he's really right about us needing to grow up, the first thing he needs to do is shut up in situation like that.
i dont really get critics. if u dont like something, dont buy it. trying to tell someone something is a terrible game or movie just exposes ur own bias, and is downright proslytizing and thought worship
personallyI think the mysogyny in arkham city is pretty damn terrible. u'd never see that kindof crap in a movie because the moral outrage FROM THE AUDIENCE would be too severe.
then again batman has always portrayed women as whores, wannabe sidekicks, lieing manipulators and damsels in distress. the only 4 significant women in batman are such - catwoman is a prostitute, batgirl is a teen with a hardon for batman, talia al ghoul is seducing batman half the time so that her dad could kill him, and racheal dawes turned out to just be a throwaway character that was blown up at the end just cuz
not to mention harlequinn, who was a down to earth psychoatrist until the "strong confident man" turned her into a lovestruck crazyperson (and of course the physical and mental abuse the joker lobs is played for kicks - every person's rema I'm sure)
poison ivy doesnt even count as a female character. she is nothing more than the inverse dracula
so yea, wanna know how to get video games to be treated seriously? stop supporitng games and characters that fuel ur death blood and wife beating fetish
i think I'm going to start actively having people boycott moviebob. he has proven himself to be a puerile, immature, emasculated douschebag as of late. too bad, some of his old stuff was decent
I guess thats the price of fame - or just getting screwattacked ;)
Gamers are, to be fair, are by-and-large a crowd of Peter Pans; children who refuse to grow up and see the frightening world of responsibility and consequence that exists around us. Some of us become "adults" and eventually drift away from the hobby that we so seriously refer to as a "culture/subculture". The problem is much more juvenile than sexism or homophobia. Its involves being part of a group. In school, that's how you became aquainted and later associated with the douchebags you would end up calling friends in the future, and without said group your social life as a sad, introverted would not last very long, even after college. But the problem is that we're so divided. SO, SO, DIVIDED. Gaming as a hobby and gamers as a culture is so filled with superficial clicks that its a wonder most of us graduated high school without bursting into tears. "We're PC gamers", "We're competetive fighting game players", "We're douchebages that only play Modern Warfare and Halo". See, even I fall prey to it. How did that one quote by Abraham Lincoln go? "A house divided against itself cannot stand". And where's my proof? Just read all the other comments. Why attack Moviebob...for...you know making a valid, and very biting and blunt point? Is that so wrong?
u clearly have not done a legitimate study of the culture of batman comics. all the woman take submissive roles and are frequently abused and hit, much to the glee of the fanbase. not all games or comic book characters are like this, hell most if not all videogames are as misogynistic as batman. its not a meme- its bloody reality.
compare batman and the shitstorm called gotham to any other superhero- superman, spiderman, green lantern, etc etc. there is at least some semblance of equality in other heros of the genre. in gothan, you are nothin but a sex doll if u are a woman
and that my friends, is why batmn is so popular
well, eschwin, why dont u do a point by point analysis of a single game that is as popular as this batman snuff porn and prove that it is as misogynistic as this?
i dont think anyone is blaming moviebob for his superficial analysis of batman. he just has a superficial analysis of.......... everything
eshwin, batman tacitly advocates the subjugation of woman by offering not a single confident independent woman. even batgirl was raped and made a cripple
eschwin, huntress I concede is a good point that I didnt consider. she appears occasionally but I assumed she was not originated from gothamm. i concede she is a legitimate conception of a female
catwoman flaunts her sexuality to get what she wants...... and is "deep down" a "scared girl" who wants the loving protection of "big strong ever emotionally absent batman." Dont believe me- they usually end up shakin it after he saves her or she saves him
and harley quinn being the ever faithful to the abusive joker is a mainstay of gotham. ever since being introduced in the batman toon of the 90's she's shown up in every tv and video game adaptation (much to the delight of video game columnists for another piece of tripe eye candy)
I dont see ur point about joker being non sex. he is clearly male..... just a bloody clown. there isnt much analysis to it, and the current rendition of him being a true foe of batman and the knight of chaos is not faithful to the original conception. originally, he was just a jokester. nothing more.
and batman is the reason all those crazies are around. granted, he did some decent work isolating the mob, but he made things a hell of a lot worse by making tons of crazies that are perpetually threatening to blown up the city. he's a bloody billionaire and instead of ending poverty and crime through programs and charity, he decides to be a crazy person who dresses up like a bat to beat up people.
I'm sorry, but in any world, even the world of comics, that's just fucking nuts
are there any female commenters out there? Im a dude, so I might be blinded by this............ is arkham asylum and the batman mythos in general insulting to women??
Misterprickly , u have to admit, captain planet was pretty frikin awesome. except for that hadji clone.......... he sho9uld have used his talk to animal powers to kill everyone with eagles and tigers.........
shashmat202, occasinally comics can be mature an d a let=gitimate artform. read georff johns recent helming of green lantern for an example. he created 6 other lantern corps, made each colr of the rainbow a different emotional affinity and threw in a hell of a lot of maturity, character exploration and depth, sick twists and plotturns, and a goddamn life and religion metaphor. can't get more "legitimate" than that
bbtw, chipman's "analysis" of the green lantern comics is as always, fucking retarded and vainly superficial
eschwin, I guess I should shift to a civil tone now (I find it funsies to demonize my opponents and use fake idiotic arguments to weed out the morons in hopes of watching them twist in the wind (more fun for me))
so this will probly be my one and only legitimate post about the matter, and after wards, I am transitiooning back into rabid dog mode
consider it a compliment ;)
i would agree with you that batman is inherantly a type A alpha male american fantasy. he is in the vein of rogue cops like dirty harry who are so fed up with the broken and inept system that he takes the l;aws into his own hands, hurting and killing a lot of people in the process (and in reality, batman has killed A LOT of people. he's just too pussy to pull the trigger himself)
originally, batman was just some goofball who dressed like a bat, and whom the cops called in when another crazy had some dumb plan to rob somethin or kill someone or blow up the city. fun, silly silly fun
then enter the origin story. batman was consumed by guilt by his parents pointless murder (in batman begins, nolan positis that it is NOT a pointless murder, as Joe Chill was murdered by the mafia right before he testified about the murder of daddy wayne. the only logical explanation for this was that he was contracted by the nafia to kill the billionaire philantropist (who remind u, was trying to save gotham, which would have cut into the mobs bottom line). so the mafia hired joe chill to kill daddy wayned, killed him, before he could testify, and chances are, ras al ghoul ordered the mafia to do it in order to bring gotham to its knees (Henri ducard so much as said it in the original "your parents death was not your fault......... it was ur fathers........... would that have stopped u.............. we decided to bring down gotham economically............. we hoped u'd lead our armies to being down gotham.......... u were my greatest students"
nonvams
I'm pretty damn sure the points luthor makes applies more to the psycho in a bat costume than the glorified boy scout from kansas
and since the league of shadows is coming in the form of bane and possible talia, chances are this "big reveal" will be s told to wayned (that the league of shadows killed his father, not random street thugs. that will bring about the profound catharsis that wayne needs to stop using a psychopathic beating spree as therapy to get over his dead parents
as for oyur point that gotham is too corrupt to save, this was recently explored in batman:year one the animated movie. the commisioner (played by the great as alway mr eisner). was in collusion with tthe mafia and ran gotham as a police state run by crime. as u konw, gordan, new bats and dent brought it all down (at least the head man). great film, better than the darknight and all batman films combined, and at least now I can see how bagotham makes concievable sense
as for the fact that every woman is just a damsel in distress looking for a strong man to protect her, that is the epitome of miisogony. no matter how badass catwoman oracle huntress ivy or harlequinn are, they are always in need of saving, and if they arent in need f saving, they fall head over heels for batman (EVERY female character falls in love with batman - a football jocks wetdream and how he thinks the female race sees him) and give up their identity and individuality just to knock it with the bats. so even if they are strong and independent, batman is always superior simply because he is male, and the woman fall in love with him simply became he is male. thand because essentially submissive housewives the bats takes for playdates dressed as fighting crime (if he ordered them to stay in the kitchen and jsut make him sandwiches, they'd probly do it)
compare that to, say mary jane or black cat or even lois lane, who dont take that crap from their other halves simply because they are the male
the batman is in charge. of gotham, of the police (he has gordon in his pocket and turned dent into a crazed psycho. he has the criminals in his pocket and he has gotham financially in his pocket. he runs gotham and has shaped it into a hellhole
the only rational explanation is that batman is actually the villain and doesnt use his billions to actually fix gotham because he'd rather spend his knights fighting another whacked out psycho that comes out of the woodworks of arkham. to quote lex luthor from Justice League unlimited
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpv3_Spc3ms
I'm pretty damn sure the points luthor makes applies more to the psycho in a bat costume than the glorified boy scout from kansas
You know, The Lord Doctor Master, I WOULD believe what you say and understand your position...
If I could actually READ what you wrote.
shashmatt, well maybe u should learn how to read and follow mildly incoherant logic chains
Oh I can read, it's you who needs to learn how to write. And spell.
fox, I'm mildly disturbed that chipman is using this forum of video game commentary as basicly a farcical ad placement for his abysmal amateur film career. i'd really rather he'd post that crap on another youtube clip where it belongs. but then agian, no one would watch it then..........
cuz u konw, chipman is a terrible director with no acting or artistic talent when it comes to self generation of creative content (sorry, I talk like this most days)
shashmatt, I can read just fine (at least thats what mommie tells me). I just prefer to lower my internet intelligence by a few standard deviations (like 3) to give a handicap and a level playing ground
Well there's something we (as gamers) can work on to be taken seriously: proper sentence structure and correct spelling!
For example, it's SMashmatt, with an "m", not an "h".
If you honestly feel justified in writing like that, just so that everyone can feel good about themselves, well... You know, that's just silly. I feel right within my mind that anyone who genuinely writes like that should even be part of the conversation. How can anyone be taken seriously or take what they say to heart if they type like a 2-year-old?
I liked the episode and generally enjoyed the fact it stuck to more discussion then side story. But speaking of side story, one thing I have been wondering is why it looks like, for the climax of this lengthy affair, three characters, all with the term "Thinker" in their name, haven't actually sat down for a good old fashioned debate/discussion/argument. It looks like this all is leading up to a petty sword fight like a bunch of jock douche bags would do because they thought the other was eyeballinging their girl...
Really what I would hope to be the cresendo of this chapter in your book would be a heated, logical and fascinating debate between the Overthinker, Pyrothinker, and Cryothinker that each depicted very real and very rational(albeit sometimes inaccurate) sides to an argument that has been part of the shows narrative this whole time. Like Overthinker is pure logic, Cryo is pure passion/emotion and Cryo is stuck somewhere between "it's so cool it should happen" and "the gaming market should stay exactly where I think it was best, like a terminal ice age".
If this all ends in a series of silly sword fights and TGO saying that the two ninjas are mere strawman arguments and never actually.. i dunno.. arguing with them.. I'll be really sad considering TGO's aspirations as a filmmaker and general outspoken voice in the gaming world.
But It's his call so I guess I will support whatever he does.. sad as I will be.
smashmatt, I dont bother spellchecking on a blogpost because I'm not publishing a paper for college or getting paid to write an essay for a newspaper. its a bloody blog post about a topic I am interested and since economics taught me that u only put in more time and effort if there is marginal gain, I make the cost benefit decision to not spellcheck my long dull rhewetorical points because I simply dont want to. to mock me as intellectual inferior without redressing my specific points, simply because I choose not to hold to your moronic spelling and grammar convections prove u to be a dullard with no interest in intellectual progression
lol...... I typed convections...............
evilking, I almost gaurentee u it will end in sword fights and strawmen arguments. I mean, since when has chipman wanted an honest discourse with anyone who remotely disagreed with him in any shape, form or fashion?
"...banish even a hint of thoughtfulness or introspection to the realm of non-consequence." I've already seen some comment defending the introspective merit of Call of Duty 4, so in the interest of not retreading the same water I'll focus on Modern Warfare 2.
While usually dismissed as cynical attempt to create controversy, the "No Russian" mission makes a very critical assessment on U.S national security policy. To recap: the CIA had intelligence on impending terrorist attack against a civilian target, but instead of thwarting this attack and save civilian lives, the agency choose to sacrifice civilian lives (the fact that they are foreign probably helped the decision) in order to infiltrate the terrorist organization, thus protecting American national security interest.
The game plot does not stray far for the Cold War Era policy of working with dictators to protect American interest. And, not unlike real life American support for the Shah resulted in Iran becoming United States’ chief adversary in Middle East today, the in-gam cynical, dog-eat-dog policy of CIA led to full scale war between Russia and the United States.
Recognizing the excellence in the usage of video game as a medium for substantive discourse is at least as important as decrying the inactions and failures (If behaviorist psychology is to be believed, positive reinforcements are significantly more effective than positive punishment or any other conditioning).
@Halollet
Love the show and I for one like the fact that you do something more with it then just you talking while I look at water or some simplistic cartoon version of you in front of a podium or a computer.
*insert whiny fanboy overreaction to minor offhand criticism of Extra Credits here*
to reiterate what widowspeak said, they tried to make a game that took a serious look at the situation in Iraq, and researched it meticulously in order to get it right. it was called Six Days in Faluja, and the second the media got wind of it they started a shitstorm that got the funding cut. and you seriously wonder why gamers are defensive? how many bullshit non-issue controversies have we seen the media pull fresh out of their ass for ratings? every time someone tries to push the medium towards the kind of thing you're asking for the cultural watchdogs flow out of the fucking woodwork to scream about how it's going to destroy the children of the world, and god knows the big-name publishers aren't exactly known for defending their developers if it means bad PR(except Rockstar and Volition, but for them the bad PR's a key part of the marketing strategy).
also, seriously consider switching to ReCaptcha if blogspot will let you. if you're going to stoke flamewars every other video, the least you can do is use it to help digitize some books.
Notice how Bob says that heroes AND villains use the B word whereas EVERYONE else (even Hulk) has said that only the villains are using it. Golly gee willikers, I wonder who I should believe.
Bob, I have to say I agree with a good chunk of this video, which makes me sad that you so rarely practice what you preach. I completely agree that gamers want to be taken seriously without doing any of the difficult criticism and introspection; that's a great point. I also agree that after complaining for years that not enough people play games, it's fucking pathetic to turn around and whine that games are "ruined" because everyone and their dog is playing Wii Sports and Angry Birds.
However, it's become increasingly obvious that YOU want to be seen as intellectual without dropping your childish prejudices and biases. As Mads said near the top, how is it okay for YOU to make up your mind about Arkham City before you played it, but everyone else who did that was a fanboy? How is a knee-jerk "THIS GAME MUST BE SEXIST!" any better than "LEAVE GAMING ALONE!"? Why is it okay for you to obsessively defend Nintendo against all attackers, but anyone else who does that is "overly defensive"? When are YOU going to start paying attention to your "Introspection" and "Hard Truth" title cards?
Anyway, back to the original topic... if anyone hasn't read Hulk's "Round 2" article, they should. He does a very good job of addressing the arguments people have been making against him. I agree with him that we shouldn't brush off such criticisms just because it's "not that bad", and that it's possible to point out sexism without it being a politically correct witch hunt.
@ The Lord Doctor Master
I fail to see how having both proper grammar and spelling AND intellectual conversations makes me a dullard. Really, having proper grammar and spelling will make people, not just me mind you, but people in general stop and take your post seriously. There are too many people who just type however they feel and most of them say the stupidest things with no thought behind them whatsoever. Not to mention, without proper grammar and spelling, you can't really tell what they're trying to say, because the sentences/paragraphs usually look like a scrambled mess or letters and words. So when I see the way you type, can you really blame me for not being able to fully understand what you say?
@ The Lord Doctor Master
I fail to see what's so disturbing about it. It's his blog, it's his show, it's his decision of what to make of it. I mean, disagree with him as you please, Bob doesn't owe anything to anybody. It's not like he is providing a public service or demanding payment.
As for him suposedly being a bad director, I am afraid I don't have much know how on movie making to match your oh so high eloquence. However, to me, an amateur is someone who can't explore the full potential of his resources and don't know how to properly achieve his artistic vision. And I don't see that in this show: I see a guy making the best out of what he's got at his disposal to produce the exact kind of show he wants to (or the closest possible).
I mean, of course you can argue that the show is "bad", I'm not even gonna pretend we are watching Hitchcock here. But, you'd have better grounds stateting that Bob has extremely bad taste then you do calling out on his amateurism.
Well, it's relatively inoffensive as far as Bob videos go. At least not as PERSONALLY offensive as his interminable Other M malarkey.
I must say I pretty much disagree with him though. Gaming does not NEED to be "respected" as an "art" because it ISN'T an art--it's games. One thing that Bob said long, long ago (back when he was on YouTube and actually made interesting, logical arguments) was that Games Are Toys. They're supposed to be games first and everything else second, as far as I see it. The day we actually try to become "art" (as if such a thing exists, which it doesn't and I'll explain in a moment) is the day this industry dies,
More so I must say this whole whining about how people need to "grow up" and then using it all as a thinly veiled swipe at modern gaming is becoming almost farcical. If I didn't know better I'd say he's trolling, but I know that's not true.
"When I grew up and became an adult, I gave up childish things, like the desire to grow up."
--C.S. Lewis, speaking TRUTH.
"Grow up", "adult", all that bullshit is just buzzwords. Created by and for intellectual pygmies to bolster their inane arguments and make their dicks feel bigger. You grew up the second you started aging, and adulthood is just a biological stage of development, no more important or relevant than childhood in the long run. It's my experience people who want to be "grown up" and "mature" are the most insecure, wilting, self-important people of all...that has yet to change.
I'm not even going into the bullshit about AC being "sexist". Anyone who really believes that is either so deluded as to be beyond convincing otherwise, or lying. If you REALLY think a game where VILLAINS say mean things is "sexist" but a game where a woman risks her life because her ex tells her to is NOT, then Jesus Christ could come down from the sky and tell you otherwise and you'd still argue he was lying. At worst, AC contains, perhaps, what some (puritan) people may call "bad language"...at worst.
The logical contortions involved here (and I'm talking about Hulk Critic too not just Bob) to get "sexist" or "offensive" out of Arkham City is truly mesmerizing.
Finally, I must say, for all the bullshit I really only watched the video for the story, which I'm enjoying. I don't get what the complaints are about--yes it's poorly directed but he's a video game journalist/movie critic/epic troll, he's not Steven Spielberg. Plus it's funny.
Hold on...
Now what I said about "art".
Note the finger quotes.
"Art" doesn't exist. It's a term so broad and so nebulous saying something is "artistic" or is "art" is like saying it contains more pictures of invisible pink unicorns than the next thing. Actually it's worse because if invisible pink unicorns existed you could actually COUNT them based on feeding, spaces for them to sleep and how many were rented, so you then COULD say that, for example, Transformers 3 was less "artsy" than Drive because Michael Bay only rented 600 invisible pink unicorns and Ryan Gosling brought 800 from Indie Darling, his personal ranch.
What I'm saying it, measuring invisible livestock is more logical than discussing "art".
It's a buzzword, at best, and at worst it's meaningless. People never made anything, paintings or sculptures or games or movies or anything, for "art". Or at least, those who actually became famous for it never did, in retrospect I'm sure there are a few douche bags out there with delusions of grandeur that NO ONE has EVER heard of who have though.
Whenever someone makes something, it is for one of three reasons:
To make money--this is why most of the great "artists" of history did what they did, including say Di Vinci and Shakespeare. Purely for money with no other real alternative, beyond perhaps getting a good laugh or two in, in the latter case.
To make a point--this is more common now and in movies especially. Basically its not "art", it's an Author Tract in movie form or perhaps in book form, where it used to be more common before (as Bob said in a recent Escapist Video) "any fool" (that means normal people) could print books. For example, any fool like...Steven King, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien, Mark Twain. You know, THOSE uneducated fools who gained access to the printing press. What's that? No I'm not an aspiring author who took offense at his ignorance, faux-intellectualism and bigotry, why would you think that?
Because it's pretty--this is the main reason people make "art", deep down inside. Because it's pretty, or more to the point, because it's aesthetically pleasing or interesting in some way to look at, read or hear. This is at heart the very CORE of what "art" is, useless spectacle, no more coherent or purposeful than a fireworks display, which is why multi-million dollar buildings are built specifically to LOOK at it in the first place...but of course no one will ever say that in the "art" world. I mean then they'd be just like us. Who want's to be just NORMAL and MAINSTREAM.
At any rate, saying something is "accepted as an art" is more meaningless than saying it's accepted as a meme. At least memes exist and have purpose (spreading) whereas "art" is either just meaningless fireworks, just an author tract, or just a money making scheme. That is why gaming is not "art".
It's better than "art"--it has a REAL purpose, it's entertainment, and more importantly it's a sport of sorts. From things like the Iron Man of Gaming to StarCraft tournaments to just some friends playing online in Gears 2, it actually provides something more important than "art": community, coherency, and FUN.
God forbid it ever changes.
Ghetto edit:
Yes I spelled "Steven" when it should have been "Stephen", before anyone asks, I was still thinking about Steven Spielberg when I wrote that so there.
I'm just going to leave this here
Further, the fact is, the Extra Credits folks made a show detailing how a game about Fallujah, from the experiences of soldiers in that battle was proposed. Then the news media got wind of the game and silenced it.
I think the gamers are ready to play unique games that aren't all about war, or give it a unique spin. You have to look for those titles.
That camera game sounds pretty friggin' amazing, Jay. I hope it's a success, thanks for linking.
To all those people who admit...
""Yeah the story isn't really good, the direction is kinda bad, the special effects are bad, the acting is bad. But Bob's trying ok?""
Play to your strengths.
If you really care about what Moviebob makes, you would tell him what works for him.
He can write well, he can make great arguments and thought provoking episodes. Even though he uses just still images, the message still makes it across which matters the most. If he focuses just on that it gets him paid work!
But when that gets pushed aside to make poorly made videos, as an avid viewer and supporter, you damn right I'll speak up about it. If Moviebob makes money off reviewing and critiquing films shouldn't he himself take note that he is making the exact same films he would slam for poor film production?
Budget isn't an issue either, you don't need a big budget to make a decent film, if you play to your strengths. Wilfred was made quickly for a film festival with a rent a costume and it went on to make two successful tv series in Australia and the USA. This can be said for even big phenomenons like Southpark. Because they played to there strengths.
Admitting Moviebob is doing things his not good at isn't helping him artistically either or helping him grow as an artist. Especially when he is not improving at all!
Your just encouraging him to make shit. This isn't free work no more, Bob gets payed to do this. Raise your standards. This is suppose to be a show about video game commentary. As a show about video game commentary its doing a poor job.
Or go watch better video game commentary like Razorfist.
http://www.rageaholic.8k.com/
At least he actually talks about gameplay mechanics effecting ones experience rather than grasping at straws to gain attention over issues that don't exist in the game at all.
@ shadowhikari
No dude, I won't "tell him what works for him". That's pretentious and authoritarian to point of being repulsive. He is a big boy, he can tell him himself what works and what doesn't. It's one thing to say you don't like a man's work and criticize it, it's another to try and impose your will over him and ask him to stop doing something he loves (something he does majorly for free) because the videos have to be the way you want it. If you want those videos so much, go make them yourself, that's how Bob got started.
And I don't think anyone defending the story ever admited he is doing things he is not good at. I think he is GREAT at doing the story part, I don't think it needs to change, I don't think it needs to "improve", I think it's fine the way it is. Could it be better? Hell yes. But it's about time people start differentiating what "could be better" from what is bad because people don't give a crap.
Also, stop this bulshit about "this is a show about gaming commentary". You are not the one to decide that, neither am I. I don't know how well Bob is being paid to do this, but I sure as hell know he is not taking MY money. If he is taking yours, here's a free tip: stop paying him. You are clearly not satisfied with the "product" you are receiving, you already demonstrated to know a better version of said "product", why the hell are you still here?
(BTW.: If there was ever a movie like this hitting Escape To The Movies, a movie - I repeat - about a big fatty man busting down retro ninjas with his fairy friend (all the while being ordered around by a comissioner that for some messed up reason is a bunny), I'm sure Bob would be ALL FRIGGIN OVER IT. It would be the second coming of Scott Pilgrim, we wouldn't hear the end of it. He would milk that fucking movie out of all the metaphysical, sociological and antropological meaning he could find. It would be a nightmare).
@Shadow Hikari
Uh, well, that's perhaps true or correct or whatever...but I must admit I actually find the story sections the MOST enjoyable part of Bob's recent work.
I mean...for one it's a brief reprieve from the faux intellectual snobbery, two I'm sorry guys but shit IT'S FUNNY, and three I hate it when anything becomes "srs bizniz" ESPECIALLY video games, so seeing someone as typically dour as Bob take the piss out of gaming kind of strikes me as fun.
It's funny now that I think about it but I actually USED to be a Bob booster a long time ago, back when he was still only on YouTube and he made more sense (or at least, pretended to, his video about how girls in games look "too sexy" still struck me as retarded even then) and yet now he seems to affront me with every breath he draws.
Weird. I'd almost compare it to two people who were an item in high school growing apart and breaking up as adults because they realize their interests are so divergent.
Anyway...at least I like the ninja bullshit. *pouts*
Which is not to say it doesn't look like shit. It does look like shit, of course. But it's funny shit so I make an exception.
It's like, Sara Silverman is the most insanely meanspirited, tiny minded, and frankly unattractive woman I've ever seen and yet I find her hilarious so I let he slide on things I'd normally tear someone a new asshole for.
Well, these videos, yeah they look like animated turds. But they're FUNNY animated turds, so I don't complain...ABOUT THE STORY, the rest of it I complain about.
@fox
""No dude, I won't "tell him what works for him". ""
Why not? He wouldn't be making cash if you didn't watch. His an entertainer, he caters to you.
""That's pretentious and authoritarian to point of being repulsive.""
Given him helpful advice is doing that? That's news to me.
""He is a big boy, he can tell him himself what works and what doesn't.""
No the audience decides that. Bob don't keep his audience, Bob don't make money.
""It's one thing to say you don't like a man's work and criticize it, it's another to try and impose your will over him and ask him to stop doing something he loves""
Telling him to stick to what worked for him before and actually got him signed to screwattack by people voting for him (he wasn't pulling these poorly made films then.) is imposing? Praising what his good at and telling him to stick to what his good at is imposing?
No its common sense. You don't tell a football player to play baseball when his clearly not good at it. Moviebob isn't good at making movies so I ain't encouraging it.
""(something he does majorly for free)""
Wrong. Forget about that whole pay to view first? Or him working on the escapist?
""because the videos have to be the way you want it. If you want those videos so much, go make them yourself, that's how Bob got started.""
Your right I'll quit my real job and start my own series on video game commentary. Go into about 50 episodes, then I'll turn around and turn into a wannabe superhero movie with low production values, because hey with an all willing, none criticizing fan base like you why should I put any effort into my work at all?
The kicker would be I'm making money which could easily go towards even get me a new camera or even buy photoshop to make clean illustrations, or better editing software, even after effects, but hey my audience already has low expectations in the first place, why bother?
Part 2
""And I don't think anyone defending the story ever admited he is doing things he is not good at. I think he is GREAT at doing the story part, I don't think it needs to change, I don't think it needs to "improve", I think it's fine the way it is. Could it be better? Hell yes. But it's about time people start differentiating what "could be better" from what is bad because people don't give a crap.""
OK, I'll judge it how it is...
Its crap.
I could give advice to how to improve this so it ain't crap, but apparently to you that's TYRANNICAL BEHAVIOUR!
""Also, stop this bulshit about "this is a show about gaming commentary". You are not the one to decide that, neither am I""
The show is called ""THE GAMEOVERTHINKER"" and for fifty episodes before this story intruded was all about Bob doing commentary on video games.
It be like you watch Dexter then the sixth season he suddenly revives people from the dead.
Its a basic rule called consistency. Which is something you can't comprehend.
""I don't know how well Bob is being paid to do this, but I sure as hell know he is not taking MY money. If he is taking yours, here's a free tip: stop paying him. You are clearly not satisfied with the "product" you are receiving, you already demonstrated to know a better version of said "product", why the hell are you still here?""
I can watch what I want, Criticize what I want. Just like Bob. I watch this, I see shit, I call shit.
Why do you get so emotionally invested with anyone criticizing Bob? Your not financially invested in him. Like you said before his a big boy...well pretty big actually.
""(BTW.: If there was ever a movie like this hitting Escape To The Movies, a movie - I repeat - about a big fatty man busting down retro ninjas with his fairy friend (all the while being ordered around by a comissioner that for some messed up reason is a bunny), I'm sure Bob would be ALL FRIGGIN OVER IT. It would be the second coming of Scott Pilgrim, we wouldn't hear the end of it. He would milk that fucking movie out of all the metaphysical, sociological and antropological meaning he could find. It would be a nightmare).""
Then the movie is released the same day as the Expendables sequel and then continues to complain on months on end about movie going audience don't like the movie he likes...
Hey if his allowed to, so I am.
I would love to see a Scott Pilgrim sequel movie squashed by the Expendables 2.
Mainly because that means I get to see the Expendables 2 (YAY!), but also because it would be HEE-LARIOUS to see the nerd rage vomited forth from Escape to the Movies that day.
Thankfully there'll be no Scott Pilgrim 2, since the Expendables killed the first one and, happily enough, Michael Cera's career along with it...thus proving the existence of a just and loving God.
@Antonio Black
Because it's the internet and there isn't an authority figure forcing them to accept the truth and grow up. It's an age where criticism can be drowned out so no one ever has to improve. Just look at that Uncharted 3 fiasco with Eurogamer that has pretty much exposed Naughty Dog as a bunch of spoiled brats who don't deserve success.
It's easy to label everyone as "spoiled brats" when the definition of "spoiled brats" is completely arbitrary.
But then the definition of "truth" and "grown up" is just as arbitrary.
Like I said there is NO actual thing as "grown up"--growing up simply means aging, that's it, any other connotation is subjective and meaningless. The second you're born you start to age, so everyone, even infants, are "grown up" after a few days or so since their bodies have aged. "Adult" is even MORE meaningless of a term since "adult" only means a stage in development whereby you've reached full physical maturity (i.e., capable of reproducing and fending for yourself). By the literal definition, a thirteen year old is an adult; LEGALLY you have to be between 18-21 to be considered a legal adult. Any OTHER definition besides those is subjective.
But that's the thing isn't it. There are people out there who play games SPECIFICALLY designed for children (Mario, for example, or Kirby) and yet DEMAND that people who play games specifically designed for an adult audience like Madden or Bulletstorm "grow up".
Growing up, IF we accept it means ANYTHING other than the biological definition of "aging linearly", then it probably would also entail that we all start at least pretending to accept other people for who they are and what they like. Instead of deriding someone because they don't like, say, platformers and only play Halo, well how about you instead DEFEND them and befriend them. Instead of pretending like they're "douchebags" beneath your notice hows about you try being nice to them. And instead of going on the internet and whinging yourself inside out about XBL everytime someone calls you a mean name, you just stand up for yourself and call them something back.
But that'll never happen because the real force behind the supposed "immaturity" of gamers, much like those in every medium, are not the people who buy DOA to beat off or who buy Madden because they like football it's the people who refuse to accept that. In my life I've played every type of game from platformers to RTS games to racing games and yes even the dreaded FPS, I have EARNED the fucking right to say what and how I want to spend my gaming dollars. So when I'm told by someone I should change MY personal tastes because they're not "cultured" enough for some internet critic, well, let me just respond as succinctly as possible:
No. Fuck no.
Jannie, I'd applaud u for your attempt to restore sanity, and agree with everything u just said, but I'd rather just make fun of the people who I disagree with (namely anyone who takes chipman's studies as something erudite and not just some crumbum posing as a nerd cuz he cant get a girlfriend otherwise)
so, cheers
let's keep fear alive = )
fox, the guy was just pointing out that the quality of this series has declined incredibly since chipman used this avenue to peddle his crappy movie career (in that vein, he's not a whole lot different than michael moore)
yes, we will all still watch it, in the same way I still watched spiderman 3 and xmen 3 even though I heard from everone they were crap(they were)
to tell the producer of creative content that he is making crap isnt whining, it's giving honest criticism in the hopes the guy will stop being an idiot and start making good stuff again
think of it as a movie review for a big magazine, if u prefer that condescending analogy
cheers =)
fox, I make fun of chipman's horrendous movie making skills because a) it's fun, and b) it really is ruining the rest of the series. moviebob started as just a dude who plays wayyyyyyyyy too many videogames, mimicing the art critic approach to commentary and occasionally making insightful points I learned upon. if this turns into a 24 hour "lets watch a lame nintendo parody" that's, by all means, his business. I'll just bitch and moan about this creative direction because I hate it so much
smashmatt, ehh whatever. I dont really engage in intellecual discussions anyway and am used to pretending to be an egotistical, racist moron (more fun that way). I'd fine some more slings of outrageous fortune to throw at u, but I guess this isnt a youtube channel........
*PS I just spend the last 5 minutes going over all my words and syntax with a finetooth comb so that u would "take me seriously". Hope I can join the big boys now ;)
jannie, i think art is like beauty. its definition as art is the ability to draw strong, usually cathartic emotional reactions from people.
vincent van goethe's starry night for example (btw, he didnt do it for the money. he was dirt poor all his life (mainly cuz the french have no taste or decency) and spend most of his later years in a crazy house
which is why things like art school and art critics are a waste of bloodyh time. not a single one of those people could create a genuine work of art, and blathering about nonsense like "theories" - only useful in physics is just intellectual pretention. people paint what they paint because they wanted to paint it that way and it really is that simple.
P.S. do all comment threads for moviebob turn into this? a cross between making fun of/defending chipman and making fun of/defending the video game genre as a whole?
@vonohzu, not sure if the truther conspiracy of 9/11 has any merit (maybe..... ambivalent on that one, buddy), but i think that interpretation of the cold war is a bit off. we did the cold war for one reason - russia had nukes and the means and desire to use them if they felt it was a necessity. stalin was in charge, and that psycho butchered millions of his citizenry. so the escalation may not have been a good thing, but I'd choose poor foreign policy decisions and brutal overthrow of governments over a russian hegemony anyday
"It be like you watch Dexter then the sixth season he suddenly revives people from the dead."
and u just described the last season of Lost. Zing!
=)
Here's a question about gaming and gamers growing up and being accepted by the rest of the media... why bother?
No, seriously, why bother? What will it do to benefit gaming financially, socially OR artisticly? Generally, ask anyone in the street and they don't give a damn about gaming. They might've played Angry Birds or something, but that's it, and nothing we or anyone else does is going to change that. They're completely apathetic; the only people who are genuinely hateful of gaming are the likes of Fox News; either simply trying to stir up a media storm or they don't know what a game even looks like, usually both, and MovieBob's already made a whole video about how their minds aren't changing. And no one actually sees the interactions between gamers other than other gamers, minus in particularly violent or newsworthy cases. So, let's say we all focus on pretending that we're all artsy sophisticated gentlemen of class and hum har at everything that doesn't resemble a Tarsem film and refuse to criticise any game for a flaw and then immediately move on, but dwell on it as if it makes some huge point on gaming culture. What next?
That isn't me just saying that games won't benefit from more consumers or anything, it's just an honest question that I'd like to see answered; what are we trying to prove, and to whom? Are we really aspiring to please some old, irrelevant Fox pundits who couldn't tell you what a computer game even looks like, or some government officals who are barely awake, or even a mostly apathetic non-gaming public who really don't give a damn one way or another. Why can't we just enjoy games without having to treat it as some great extention of the human soul without fault, and watch our tongues when criticising the game lest we accidentally offend some guy we've never even met? I don't think we do; I think games should be allowed to be flawed somewhat, as should be people, because otherwise you're not being honest. I like the idea of 'be nice to each other' and keeping general rule of politeness, but by holding back and offering no response to an argument that isn't somehow confrontational, you're just lying, both to yourself and the other guy. Arguments ARE confrontational; let them be. Don't like it, don't get sucked in. Sometimes, it's worth letting a cunt just be a cunt.
If I may quote noted TV critic Charlie Brooker when he was talking about the British games industry - "... the resulting lack of mainstream coverage means that, despite being about 10,000 times more successful than the British film and TV industries combined, the British videogames industry continually balances a pathological inferiority complex with a wounded sense of pride. Quite why it still wants validation from these older, fading forms of media is a mystery. It's like a powerful young warrior disgruntled at being ignored by an elderly and irrelevant dying king."
That's how I slice this whole 'need-to-grow-up' anyway.
How do you find time to do this show, the Big Picture and Escape to the Movies weekly? Between researching, writing, editing, finding footage and pictures, this stuff takes a ton of time.
@Spongey Blob
I could not agree with you more. I've been saying that exactly for years, and that quote about the young warrior and the old dying king is quite fitting.
You're absolutely right, but of course, the quote also points out why some people including Bob and others want and NEED to feel accepted: they feel their pride is being challenged by their less successful but more widespread peers and need that acceptance to validate their own beliefs, for good or ill.
I _kind_ of agree, but some combination of the way the issue's being presented and some of the steps taken getting there have me reaching for the antacid.
There seems to be a frequent thread in your work, Bob, where the people on the opposite side aren't just wrong, they're wrong for the worst possible reasons you can come up with. People who enjoy "Fast and the Furious" are slack-jawed uber-douches. People with reservations about genetically altered foods are anti-science, anti-progress hysterics and Luddites. People who don't like "Other M" might be Japanaphobes, etc. This is hardly unique in the field of criticism, but (at the risk of sounding like a mom) it only frustrates me because I know you're capable of better. I've seen it.
Here, well, I can't help but feel you undermine your own argument a bit when you a) suggest that video game lovers want mass-market acceptance b) say they're on their way there but for their refusal to treat reactions to their beloved medium with more maturity and then c) point out your position as an advocate of the medium yet d) say said medium hasn't earned the right to be taken seriously. Do you see what I mean? If the _Overthinker_ doesn't think the medium worthy, why should anyone hold out hope for the "Angry Birds" crowd? The closed loop of "I would take you seriously if you showed yourself worthy of being taken seriously, but you're afraid I'm not taking you seriously, so you're defensive in ways that make me think you're not worthy" also isn't so much an argument as a Catch-22 spiraling down to hell.
So I was saying, somewhere, that I agreed with the underlying thesis?... Yes, the video game culture needs to grow a thicker skin about criticism, especially if it _does_ believe that video games can and/or will deserve to be put on the same pedestal as film, books, television, etc. But I also understand where _some_- not all- of the reaction to the "bitch" controversy comes from. _Arkham City_ is a big game, a more-or-less mainstream title that even people who don't sit down in front of a PC or console may have some exposure to, and one at least _some_ of whose characters most people will recognize. Many of those people won't play the game, and will never appreciate its design or characterization, never recognize the strides its interface makes over earlier third-person titles, and so on. But the "bitch" thing is something they might recognize and respond to- possibly as hysterically and wrongly as many of the people who are responding to its very mentioning do now. Gaah! Circle the wagons!
Gaming culture has come far enough that we have our own status quo and our own "in-crowd". What we're seeing here is a defense of the former and a shunning of someone who "broke the rules" of the latter. That status quo is that developers of games like "Mortal Kombat" or "Dead Space" put whatever content they want in their games and we, the gamers, take it in stride (perhaps with a kind of assurance that "outsiders" will never see it to judge it by their own scale.) The "shunning" is from the tacit agreement of the "insiders" that we won't do things that bring anything questionable about our version of the "status quo" to the attention of "outsiders".
Nothing to be proud of, to be sure, but perhaps deserving of a little understanding and sympathy, given our history. Along with a hope that this is one more growing pain on the path to maturity.
if madden came out with a football game that called chipman a "fat raging homo who cant get laid" but somehow found a way to "condemn it" (by, I dunno, creating a thoroughly broken nerd secret team with super powers or something) we'd hear him bitching about how mainstream games dont accept him for the rest of this broadcast
There are some broader points which made the video worth watching (but only if you skip the story bookends) - I like the suggestion that gamers are too afraid of criticism of their beloved games, and the claim that games don't necessarily yet deserve the respect the fans demand. Finally, I agree that the medium has a narrow scope that is often insensitive and vapid. We all see this time and time again.
But here is my beef: Bob once again dismisses volumes of clever or reasonable debate. In regards to Batman, many people clever things to say over the sexism issue, some of which can be found on this blog. But instead of acknowledging or examining those claims, Bob just calls us knee jerking cry babies. He says we are in denial over issues, whilst ignoring what we have to say.
So what is the point in even commenting here? We're only going to be dismissed out of hand. We are only going to have our carefully considered arguments represented in the next episode by a stock photo of a lynch mob. If Bob wants us to accept hard truths and stern criticisms about our behaviour, the least he could do is listen to what we have to say.
In summary, I'm not saying that gamers don't overreact (especially in regards ot the cat woman thing) but that it is no good to pretend we ALL overreact; that the people who post here lack a reasonable voice and a sense of introspection. Stop lumping them in with the assholes.
hat2, like the other guy said, dirty water in the desert. this is the only blog I'm aware of that even attempts a deep analysis of video games and its culture. it's just too bad the majority of us dislike bob and the way he hypocritically clinges to his dumb beliefs
so we ignore bob and converse with each other (u notice how very little we talk about his points in his actual videos??)
Oh wow, would you look at all the crap in the comments?
People think just because he got popular because of them he's their puppet now. Some think they're running their own personal vendetta against him. Others think a highly intellectual retort against him defends in their liking of utter crap. And a few think that they look clever by trying to stir up more trouble. More and more crap just keeps piling up in these comments.
Gee Bob, how on EARTH do you keep your shoes clean wallowing through this? Oh tht's right, by letting them vent it out like they think you really give two cents about what they think anyways.
I'm always so amused by those who think they're making a statement by posting in comment sections of the person they disagree with the most as if they'll be payed any attention. It's just adorable.
lol are u some hippie secretly in love with bob, etrian. the comments section is owned by the viewers of this show. bob does not interfere. in fact i doubt bob reads or cares what we write on this blog
we write what we write hear because there are serious issues with the way bob approaches the gaming medium. and as members of the gaming medium, we do not like that
@ Etrianovus
Thank you for your meaningful, interesting and well thought-out contribution to the argument. We appreciate your feedback.
@The Lord Doctor Master
Wait, wait, wait. I stayed out of this one because I know better, but I gotta ask...
If you KNOW, Bob's likely not paying any attention to this, or even if so likely doesn't even care, then... this is helping to stop the wrong way he's approaching this... how? I mean... you're, giving him pageviews, and in return he ignores you and reaps the benefits of your arguments making hits on his blog...
I may not be a computer, however the phrase [DOES NOT COMPUTE] still comes to mind...
Entirely unrelated note: Did you... really just call the pony a hippy? Really? What are you, seventy-years-old? Seriously, I read that and immediately heard Grandpa Simpson yelling 'Shaddup ya hippy!'
i'm an asian conservative refugee from the town george bush was born from, just graduated from college. the whole idea of free love and tolerance and whatnot is hippie nonsense to me. the same people would have said we should have negotiated and shown "love" to Pol Pot during the killing fields, while i'd rather the us send the cia to shoot him in the head for trying to kill my family
I posit that chipman doesnt read any of this because he has not altered his videos other than to make fun of those who comment on his blog
dont really think it matters if one more person comes here. its like voting. and it doesnt matter to me if me criticizing him makes him more popular
i come here for the discussions debates and arguments about the specifics of gaming culture. that doesnt exist where i'm from so i take what i can get. chipman doesnt contribute to the comments, so he is an irrelevant
hope i made myself clear, love
@Aqua
It's best to not dwell on such things. That way your brain doesn't calcify
Then technically, that means that Bob is inherently responsible for, reaguardless of intentions, the discussions, debates, and arguments you thrive upon... does it not?
I don't want to say that someone got people thinking about the gaming community, buuut...
aqua, technicaly, chipman owns this blog and all related content. its common etiquette forthe blog writer to not get involved inthe comments sectionthough
I'm guessing "Video Games! Are! Toys!" has been retired from the show's Pile O' Catch Phrases. It's a bit of a shame, because as I watched, I increasingly expected the phrase to be used in some regard.
I parsed the end message of this episode to be that gamers are selfish and wish for they and their hobby to be respected on their own terms. While this sort of selfishness isn't exclusive to gamers, that's still not how things work, and that gamers and the game industry will have to make some changes in order to truly begin to shed the "Video Games! Are! Toys!" label attached to them.
Also, I hope the next arc of this show melds A-Plot and B-Plot together a little more, seeing as it's really not melded together at all.
First thing...WOW. There are some heated arguments in the comments here. Do you even read these things?
So, brass tacks....I approve. The message in general, that gamers need to grow up and accept responsibility, is a good one. While I can't deny that some of your commentators have some good points as well, I can't condemn your show for any mistakes you may have made.
It is healthy to have one's beliefs challenged every now and again. You have provided your side of the argument in a manner that makes quite a bit of sense. You're not Extra Creditz, but you're pretty darn close. ^_^
Even if what you said wound up being 'wrong', you've given us quite a bit to think about. The next time someone critisizes a game I own, I'm going to think carefully about defending it. Sure these critics won't ALWAYS be right....but what is 'right' in terms of critisism? I enjoyed Final Fantasy XIII's story. Other people claim that its terrible.
But its the ability to discuss these points calmly that will prove that the medium is ready to evolve. We're making progress. You can tell by the comments.
i think its more of gamers need to take a chill pill. idont get pissed when the media and people make fun of me for my painball and doll collection. or even my porn collection. games are entertainment and entertainment isnt meant to be taken seriously, by anyone, especially the consumer. Good games, bad games, whatever. a game is a game and its only good because people enjoy playing it. same how art is good cuz its pretty and occasionally makes u feel warm fuzzies inside (except van goethe of course- he twas a crazy awesome dude who painted some seriously wicked meadows)
I agree with most of the video, and I think it was well done. I do however, have two tiny points of contention.
Re:"whining about casual gaming" Sure, most of the whining about casual gaming is about not wanting to give up gaming's supposed exclusivity, there is definitely a problem where those types of games basically exist in a different world from "core" games. Casual gamers don't consider what they do "playing videogames," and it doesn't really help us any. All these games are fine (in theory anyway,) but until the people who enjoy these games don't see what they do as very different from what we do, then it doesn't actually broaden the audience any.
Re: gaming not having many "Full Metal Jacket" and "Apocalypse Now" type war experiences, and whether or not anyone would want to play them. This is mostly true, but there are actually a couple of high-profile instances of game creators trying to fit this kind of thing into their games to varying degrees, and basically what happens is the message gets ignored or lost in everything else. I mean, the entire Metal Gear series from Metal Gear Solid onwards is basically a story about PMCs gone mad and the prospective horrors of Nuclear War. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare attempted to at least not take the insane jingoistic route before the sequels all became interactive Micheal Bay movies. Other than that, yeah few and far between.
What about Knights of the Old Republic 2? That game dealt intelligently with the aftermath of war.
A hypocrite as always. :)) Great episode. :))
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