tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post3401921558069401296..comments2024-03-28T13:24:46.023-07:00Comments on The GAME OVERTHINKER: Oslo Terrorist calls 'Modern Warfare' "Part of [his] training-simulation" (UPDATED)MovieBobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00226832228090053258noreply@blogger.comBlogger79125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-13447507898358669002020-06-22T08:28:31.052-07:002020-06-22T08:28:31.052-07:00In principle, you can freely play in any licensed ...In principle, you can freely play in any licensed casino and even win, but you need to choose those where the slots give more, so I decided to play in the <a href="https://jennycasino.com/casino/888-casino/" rel="nofollow">casino 888</a> UK, where there is excellent profit in the slots, and therefore I win big money and besides, I’m very happy because it’s very interesting. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-46705438631168866022011-11-30T01:15:16.119-08:002011-11-30T01:15:16.119-08:00Wow, there is a lot of useful data above!Wow, there is a lot of useful data above!www.camobel.infohttp://www.camobel.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-23666708681044402692011-08-01T16:10:05.611-07:002011-08-01T16:10:05.611-07:00@Narf
I'd written out a reply earlier but my ...@Narf<br /><br />I'd written out a reply earlier but my tablet ate it. Either way, we've gone over almost all the points I think can be made by now, so I figure we're near end of discussion if you can stomach it for another post or two =P<br /><br /><i>Well, I don't see that "lies" are at all necessary to do that. A truth can be just as abused as a falsehood. And it's not the specific words or ideas themselves that polarize people, it's the vague unconscious fears that those ideas stir up that polarize people.</i><br /><br />The "lies" part were a necessary part of my argument to create a logical sequitur. Without it, I couldn't have made a strict deduction to where I ended up, I suspect. Or maybe I could, but when you don't know exactly where you're going (as is the nature of most deductive reasoning), sometimes little peculiarities end up in them. A more laborous man than I would go back and try to make a more efficient convincing argument once he'd deduced he had the right of it.<br /><br /><i>I don't think there's any question that people can influence each other, and that ideology can be used toward that end. But, it's the people doing that. The ideology is just a tool.</i><br /><br />This is the meat of the issue isn't it. Is it the practitioners or the ideology itself. Is it the participant who commits extremism, or does the ideology have something to do with it.<br /><br />To me, these _are not_ seperable. Peoples belief and the people themselves cannot, at least not on an individual level, be distinguished. Did you do something because of a belief you held, or because you had an urge to do it, or because you decided to.<br /><br />In the end, there is a reason. You can argue however you like; you won't know if the extremist acted out of religious devotion, out of tribal instinct, or out of rational thinking...or even out of personal desire.<br /><br />I choose to blame the people who scared the shit out of him, in this case, at least a little. I think he was like a water baloon, and he was already ready to burst, but I seriously doubt he would have if it wasn't for people who kept putting more water in him...and I seriously doubt he would have associated with those people in the first place if not for their unforgiving ideological hate-filled indoctrination, concerning the muslim assault on europe and what have you.<br /><br />Perhaps he simply latched on to something he already thought was true, but didn't know how to put in words; but it was still propagated by ideologoues, it was still ideology, and it still may have been the straw that broke the camels back. Forgive me if I choose to blame the beliefs in him that may have triggered this.<br /><br /><i>"Some lie, some don't, for example."<br /><br />Given the study you posted... how would we know?</i><br /><br />Because we know to watch for it; and because we are able to position certain ideological priorities above others. Logic can be placed at the top...logic being belief in the truth of abstract causality...and the ability to do abstraction at all fundamentally necessitates this, so most can subscribe to it.<br />From there, it's just a matter of stumbling upon a logical contradiction within any ideology, and you know you've encountered a lie at some point.<br /><br />That's just an example. In general, the study does apply to us, but now that we are aware of it, we can take precautions, precautions which the participants didn't take, and suddenly, it no longer applies to us. All experience dictates that knowing about a pit-fall will surely help you avoid it.Madshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05061888501151043115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-44197260675684828812011-07-31T00:31:31.101-07:002011-07-31T00:31:31.101-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05398590829658810063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-23858137195008797182011-07-31T00:31:06.541-07:002011-07-31T00:31:06.541-07:00There are two distinctions that need to be made wi...There are two distinctions that need to be made with this issue. One is that, as the fallacy goes, correlation does not imply causation. The other is that, even if there IS causation, there's a difference in which way the causation goes.<br /><br />Those of us interested in defending gaming can agree that playing/liking FPSs does not make someone a gun-psycho. But what Moviebob is conceding here - which he never summed up in so many words, but should have - is that there ARE a lot of people who play/like FPSs because they're [already] gun-psychos. And THAT, unless I'm mistaken, is what he's saying needs to be admitted, discussed, and rectified.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05398590829658810063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-24783092892231717262011-07-30T16:16:44.037-07:002011-07-30T16:16:44.037-07:00@ jojjo
"Rest assured that I'll read you...@ jojjo<br /><br /><i>"Rest assured that I'll read your reply and will be happy to have another long OT debate at another time though :)"</i><br /><br />Always a pleasure. =)<br /><br /><i>"Well, it still quite clearly implies sectarian isolation from nonbelievers and abandonment of all worthily aspirations (a common theme with Jesus, and how many Christians follow that)"</i><br /><br />I don't think isolationism is an incorrect interpretation... I don't necessarily believe it's a correct one either. It's still a far cry from outright hatred, though.<br /><br /><i>"So when Jesus says something you disagree with (that OT still applies) i's corrupted text, but when he says something you agree with (that OT is not that important) i's genuine? Again, nothing I'd have any problem with if you didn't seem to imply that any other interpretation than yours would be non-Christian."</i><br /><br />I believe I quite clearly said in that case it was just my opinion. Also, I did not say that Levitical law still applying was corrupted text, but the Levitical law itself is corrupted text. The Torah is several centuries older then the Gospels, and passed through hundreds more hands along the way.<br /><br />Unfortunately, how the law should be observed is something Jesus waffled around a bit on (John 8:2-11 is another good example). I suspect this is mostly because the local religious/political leaders were quite literally looking for excuses to execute him. So, yes, there's a lot up for interpretation there. I, however, choose to believe the interpretation that's most consistent with everything else Jesus taught.<br /><br />As for the rest of that..<br /><br />It really can't be under estimated how much of human behavior can be easily explained by our natural tribal instincts. And I've got a bit of an "Occam's razor" stance about that... If something can be explained as nothing more than a biological response, there's really no reason to muddle up the explanation with any more than that. I would need to see some level of empirical evidence that anything else is going on.<br /><br />I also think that tribal instinct and culture are inherently inseparable from each other. Here's a example I'll pull out of ass: Here in the US (and most western cultures in general) we place a very high importance on punctuality compared to other cultures. While there are all sorts of reasons and rationalizations given for that, none of that matters. People are punctual simple because their tribe tells them it's important, or not because they don't. The actual "ideas" behind we we should or shouldn't be punctual don't even come into play.<br /><br />"Islamic" suicide bombers also work as an example of this. This likely started out as a tradition in a small local tribe of terrorists, and spread throughout the greater "Islamic" terrorist tribe through social pressure and and posthumous social status. The actual "ideals" and "beliefs" here are irrelevant... just a common tribal association and a biological response.<br /><br /><i>"(In the interest of full disclosure: I do believe in (practical) free will and personal respectability, and I don't think anything I've written contradicts that; although I recognize that it might be interpreted that way.)"</i><br /><br />I would say that I believe in "compatibilism" in that I believe people are wholly capable of learning self control and exercising it over their unconscious impulses, or at least being able to concisely prioritize which unconscious impulse they'll follow, but that by and large most people don't and will blindly follow whatever their body tells them.The Almighty Narfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13476204880749031251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-89110627021658479502011-07-30T03:56:42.788-07:002011-07-30T03:56:42.788-07:00Bit late here I know, as always. On these discussi...Bit late here I know, as always. On these discussions I always say the same thing..... <br /><br />If video games have an impact on violence why do we not see more violence happening where they are played the most. Then I just link to this site: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm. It shows that since around 93 the violent crime rate in the US peaked and has been decreasing since. <br /><br />What's special about the year 93 / 94, you guessed it the release of the first FPS's. So you could make as good an argument, as the ban brigade makes, that FPS decrease violence rather than increasing it.<br /><br />That someone used a videogames to practice killing people, shock horror, you know who else does that most military organisations in the world. Give it up already the ban brigade your arguments just get less and less borne out by reality.Phoboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09337327515832076355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-18905333831609626992011-07-29T15:55:39.033-07:002011-07-29T15:55:39.033-07:00TAN/
Sorry about the late reply; I'll try to k...TAN/<br />Sorry about the late reply; I'll try to keep it brief, and since I think this thread is a bit unwieldy already (and I've steered far enough off topic) this will be my final entry. Rest assured that I'll read your reply and will be happy to have another long OT debate at another time though :) <br /><br />First on my Bible points:<br />Luke 19: I'll admit my summary was crude, but my point was simply that it is a possible interpretation. And since the words are spoken as a conclusion by the noble (God/Jesus, depending on how you view Jesus) I'd hardly call it a stretch to interpret it as if Jesus wants his enemies killed before him, even though the most straightforward interpretation of course is that God punish those who squanders his gifts.<br />Luke 14: Well, it still quite clearly implies sectarian isolation from nonbelievers and abandonment of all worthily aspirations (a common theme with Jesus, and how many Christians follow that)<br />Old Testament law: So when Jesus says something you disagree with (that OT still applies) i's corrupted text, but when he says something you agree with (that OT is not that important) i's genuine? Again, nothing I'd have any problem with if you didn't seem to imply that any other interpretation than yours would be non-Christian. <br /><br />My other comment was a bit rushed and compressed so I'll clarify. With "all suicide bombers are Muslim" i meant "all suicide bombers today are Muslim"; however my point is not that Islam necessarily creates s-bombers or that s-bombers must necessarily be Muslim, so I hardly see how your answer matter (in this case or the concentration-camp case): these where just examples the people of a certain culture, religion and ideology acting wildly different than other people, with different cultures, religions and ideologies. You are the one who (at least seems to) makes an absolute claim: that our biology is the only important factor infoming our behavior (or at least that culture, religion and ideology are irrelevant), wheres I just think it is the most important factor. The examples simply served to point out that human behavior is not evenly/randomly spread across the world, which it should be if culture, religion and ideology where irrelevant. And yes, I see you mentioned culture as an explanation for behavior; that, however, doesn't make sens, since all three are hardy separable parts of a persons worldview, which is both conscious and sub-conscious. <br /><br />I'll leave it at this: Culture, religion and ideology all affects how a person views the world, and therefore how he makes decisions. Of course someones basic personality is biological, and of course it is then mainly shaped by general life experience i.e. the world around him (culture). However: 1) That culture is itself shaped by the religions and ideologies predominant in it (which is why the three are so hard to separate); and 2) The individual stance on religion, politics and philosophy not only affect your conscious decisions (which is important enough), but your emotional responses as well (the communication between conscious and sub-conscious parts of the brain is not one way), and can be the thing that push you over the edge or stop you from doing what you might otherwise have done. Put together I think this makes it quite reasonable to call a fanatic a fanatic and not just a lunatic. <br /><br />(In the interest of full disclosure: I do believe in (practical) free will and personal respectability, and I don't think anything I've written contradicts that; although I recognize that it might be interpreted that way.) <br /><br />p.s. "I'll try to keep it brief", it seems like I failed :)jojjohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564948960758809059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-27993865881657211752011-07-28T17:21:22.729-07:002011-07-28T17:21:22.729-07:00@ Mads
"But suppose the democratic top fed t...@ Mads<br /><br /><i>"But suppose the democratic top fed them lies. Their ideology would clearly become less fact-based, but they could be polarized by words and ideas (and those aren't biology now are they? =P)."</i><br /><br />Well, I don't see that "lies" are at all necessary to do that. A truth can be just as abused as a falsehood. And it's not the specific words or ideas themselves that polarize people, it's the vague unconscious fears that those ideas stir up that polarize people.<br /><br />I don't think there's any question that people can influence each other, and that ideology can be used toward that end. But, it's the people doing that. The ideology is just a tool.<br /><br />Of course after reading up on what is now known about the man, I don't think any of this has any relevance to Behring Breivik, though, as he doesn't seem to have been influenced by anything other than his own ego-mania.<br /><br /><i>"but to say that all ideologies are fungible is wrong, they don't all work the same, they don't appeal to the same people, and they don't change people in the same ways."</i><br /><br />Well, yes, obviously a Nihilist and a Christian are looking for different things from an ideology. But, I don't think the "ideology" behind the ideology has anything to do with that, but has much more to do with the group of people associated with that ideology.<br /><br /><i>"Some lie, some don't, for example."</i><br /><br />Given the study you posted... how would we know?The Almighty Narfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13476204880749031251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-85249714755109898352011-07-28T17:06:07.744-07:002011-07-28T17:06:07.744-07:00I'd like to thank all of you for the support, ...I'd like to thank all of you for the support, I'm from Norway, and dont have a direct connection with anyone on the island at the time, but this has most certainly touched all of us in this little country. <br /><br />that being said; not one paper in Norway has really gone in depth about this video game link thats been buzzing about, I dont think anyone here is thick enough to even bother blaming videogames for what is obviously the works of a deranged madman. <br /><br />I see someone asking where to donate towards the hospital bills of the victims. this is Norway, theres no such thing as hospital bills ;) it will however most likely be possibvle to donate towards a memorial fund for the victims, but nothing is certain yet. as i guess most of you can understand we are still in the process of getting to grips with what happened, its been a week and not all of the victims parents have gotten definite news about their childrens conditions yet. At this moment I think there are still about 12 people unaccunted for.Dozihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18335008163698893681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-6870026919278103752011-07-28T09:48:34.172-07:002011-07-28T09:48:34.172-07:00"
What I think is fascinating is that I see t..."<br />What I think is fascinating is that I see that study and interpret it as supporting my theory.<br />"<br />The study has some broad implications. I don't doubt you can find many useful conclusions in it. It does support part of your general theory, but the specific part, (that the oslo terrorist wanted to commit an act of terrorism actually always wanted to do something like it (perhaps without knowing), and simply found a fungible ideology that was to his liking and used it to rationalize what he already wanted to do, meaning the ideology had zero impact) that's what I proclaim may very well not be the case, and is defintely not a universal truth in these matters.<br /><br />"<br />In both cases the actual ideas behind the ideologies are irrelevant, just that they are ideologies. And like we established earlier, ideological groups can fill the unconscious role of a tribe. People will assume what their tribe tells them is true, and assume the worst about rival tribes for no other reason than that's what their biology tell them. A few thousand years ago human survival depended on the conformity of the tribe and the denial of rival tribes. This is just biology playing out.<br /><br />That the study's subjects rejection truth in favor of what they want to believe I think shows that there was no conscious thought, and that this is a process happening entirely on the unconscious level.<br />"<br />I didn't argue that the subconscious level wasn't there. I argued that a persons ideology influences their subconscious perceptions. Call it what you want; maybe the democrats developed kinsmanship with fellow democrats, and scorned the republican justice merely because he was a republican. Fair enough, that's fungible.<br /><br />But suppose the democratic top fed them lies. Their ideology would clearly become less fact-based, but they could be polarized by words and ideas (and those aren't biology now are they? =P).<br /><br />So call it ideological tribesmanship all you want; if you subscribe to an ideology and are influenced by your tribe, they bear partial responsibility for polarizing you if they do that, and they _will_ make you feel things you didn't before; and that can make you do things you wouldn't have done otherwise.<br /><br />If the lies are ingrained within the ideology itself, and you're slowly polarized by only being exposed gradually, then the ideology itself is also to blame. If it's a mistreatment of a particular ideology, the ideology is not to blame...except, it's mistreated form can be considered another ideology, which may then be to blame.<br /><br />Blaming an ideology is obviously silly, you need to blame the practitioners who perpetuate it if it's dangerous; but to say that all ideologies are fungible is wrong, they don't all work the same, they don't appeal to the same people, and they don't change people in the same ways. Some lie, some don't, for example.Madshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05061888501151043115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-64817892462837093442011-07-27T15:25:09.394-07:002011-07-27T15:25:09.394-07:00@ Madds
What I think is fascinating is that I see...@ Madds<br /><br />What I think is fascinating is that I see that study and interpret it as supporting my theory.<br /><br />In both cases the actual ideas behind the ideologies are irrelevant, just that they <i>are</i> ideologies. And like we established earlier, ideological groups can fill the unconscious role of a tribe. People will assume what their tribe tells them is true, and assume the worst about rival tribes for no other reason than that's what their biology tell them. A few thousand years ago human survival depended on the conformity of the tribe and the denial of rival tribes. This is just biology playing out.<br /><br />That the study's subjects rejection truth in favor of what they want to believe I think shows that there was no conscious thought, and that this is a process happening entirely on the unconscious level.The Almighty Narfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13476204880749031251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-28230469389059384102011-07-27T14:38:13.036-07:002011-07-27T14:38:13.036-07:00@ Narf
Perhaps I didn't explain this well eno...@ Narf<br /><i><br />Perhaps I didn't explain this well enough.. I don't think that ideologies could be motivating factor because I think all motivation comes from biological drives through the unconscious mind. Ideologies exist in the conscious mind serving only to remove cognitive dissonance. That's all. And as such, ideologies are entirely fungible.<br /></i><br /><br />I can find no fault with the logic, if I buy into the idea that all motivation comes from biological drives through the unconscious mind, and per extension, that ideologies cannot shape perceptions and affect the unconscious mind.<br /><br />But that premise is false; provably false, in that, it is most definitely not the case for all humans. From a biological standpoint, a fact is a fact, nomatter what fungible ideology you have latched on to.<br /><br />Only, people put different weight upon facts (and lies!) depending on what they already believe in:<br />http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2008/09/does-ideology-trump-facts-studies-say-it-often-does.ars<br /><br />That's insensible. The democrats in the example should feel equally bad about the republican justice before and after finding out about erroneous facts. Instead, they chose to disregard facts that went against their ideology, and were polarized by the falsehood.<br /><br />Quite clearly, by being presented with misinformation, so they knew nothing more after the misinformation was cleared up than before, but they had developed a greater antipathy towards the man.<br /><br />So clearly, the lies they were told _had_ an effect on their oppinion, _even though they knew they were lies_.<br /><br />I don't know how much more I can do to illustrate that humans can be manipulated by ideological means and messages? I mean, the studies were big. I think my logic is sound, otherwise I'd like you to show me where. I don't really think there's a lot of room for you to exonerate ideology per-default here :(Madshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05061888501151043115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-27719766757142791172011-07-27T14:30:29.464-07:002011-07-27T14:30:29.464-07:00@ jojjo
"If ideology is entirely superficial...@ jojjo<br /><br /><i>"If ideology is entirely superficial then how come ALL suicidebombers are Muslims,"</i><br /><br />Does the term "kamikaze" mean anything to you? Looking at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack) that sort of thing doesn't actually seem to be all that uncommon at all.<br /><br /><i>"how come Communists and Nazis are the only people in history to build massive concentration camps;"</i><br /><br />The technology for mass execution really wasn't viable before they started doing it. That's not to say mass execution didn't happen before than, but the industrial revolution and the invention of bio-weapons were relatively recent.<br /><br /><i>"how come, in short, the enormous differences we can see between different nations and epochs?"</i><br /><br />Technology, climate, environment, culture (as in local behavior and activities)... there are hundreds of potential variables.The Almighty Narfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13476204880749031251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-29580801654092349622011-07-27T14:05:09.175-07:002011-07-27T14:05:09.175-07:00@ maxxedout
Well, you _could_, but Norway has buil...@ maxxedout<br />Well, you _could_, but Norway has build up so much national wealth that they could cease collecting taxes on income and trade tariffs and still be in the black in 10 years. I don't really see where or how you would do it; there's no organization for such a thing.<br /><br />As part of norways national territory are some massive oilfields that the government are taxing, which explains the surplus.<br /><br />You best bet would be the norwegian division of the red cross. I guess if you wanted to try and counteract the damage done by the terrorist to the political youth party, you could donate to that...but it's really hard to lend a hand since there are already plenty.<br /><br />Not that norway is perfect; I'm sure you could donate to a lot of good causes, like organisations helping drug addicts and prostitutes turn their lives around...but this exact tragedy is just hard to help bandaid.Madshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05061888501151043115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-61841304765204742862011-07-27T11:36:22.971-07:002011-07-27T11:36:22.971-07:00This issue has sprung up in Australia too. The Aus...This issue has sprung up in Australia too. The Australian Christian Lobby wants to ban violent video games on this one even using the excuse that if they can stop something like this happening, even if the odds are a 1 event in 20 years happening, then it's worth it.<br /><br />It's ridiculous in my opinion. We just started cheering that we are getting the adult rating (R18+) here and now this comes to make it sit on rocky ground. I guess it was a pipe dream.<br /><br />As for Modern Warfare 2 being the training tool, I hate to say this but I believe it's possible. Look at the skippable mission, it kinda fits. I admit I hate the FPS genre games where I kill people instead of aliens or monsters but I feel maybe we should start looking at the military FPS genre and ask ourselves "Do we need realistic military FPS anymore?" and "Why do we like these games more then the same games but with non existant creatures?".<br /><br />Events like this are gonna happen more and more, not the tradgedy but the video games are evil thing. But here's my question. Religon hates video games and he was highly religious right? So is it possible this was done just to make video games appear more destructive in the public eye? Think about it.Ultima Black Magehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15237070510558428920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-62353401656493526862011-07-27T08:08:42.156-07:002011-07-27T08:08:42.156-07:00TAN/
If ideology is entirely superficial then how ...TAN/<br />If ideology is entirely superficial then how come ALL suicidebombers are Muslims, how come Communists and Nazis are the only people in history to build massive concentration camps; how come, in short, the enormous differences we can see between different nations and epochs?<br /><br />(Bible comments upcoming)jojjohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564948960758809059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-62721555226388034742011-07-27T00:26:26.423-07:002011-07-27T00:26:26.423-07:00@Illessa and Mads,
If I can't donate to the ho...@Illessa and Mads,<br />If I can't donate to the hospital bills directly, can I donate to the Norwegian national debt, which is no doubt increasing precipitously to cover this sweetness and light?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-27513933983532802682011-07-26T16:29:22.279-07:002011-07-26T16:29:22.279-07:00@ Madds
Well, I would readily admit this is just ...@ Madds<br /><br />Well, I would readily admit this is just a theory. I would say just about anything regarding human physiology is just a theory.<br /><br />Perhaps I didn't explain this well enough.. I don't think that ideologies could be motivating factor because I think all motivation comes from biological drives through the unconscious mind. Ideologies exist in the conscious mind serving only to remove cognitive dissonance. That's all. And as such, ideologies are entirely fungible.The Almighty Narfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13476204880749031251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-11725400044696882282011-07-26T15:25:27.001-07:002011-07-26T15:25:27.001-07:00@ Narf
"
Behring Breivik, for whatever reason...@ Narf<br />"<br />Behring Breivik, for whatever reason that we will likely never understand, felt threatened in some way by Norway's Labour Party, so he latched onto an ideology that in his mind justified what he already wanted to do.<br />"<br />But what if the reason we will likely never understand, as you put it, _was absolute belief in an ideology_ ? OR are you saying he already wanted to do it, for some other reason, but there's no way ideological belief was the one. It could be anything, _just not ideology_?<br /><br />You suggested biology, tribesmanship and instinct, but you really have no more evidence to support that ideology couldn't be an underlying reason than that biology couldn't. I accept the tribesmanship idea, in a sense it can make sense - but how can you just blatantly exonerate one possible type of reason and no other?<br /><br />If you have the evidence, _show it_. If it's just a theory, _say that_ and I'll try to provide counter examples, or if I can't I'll accept it.<br /><br />It feels like you're dancing around the meat of the issue.<br /><br />Look, so far, his manifest is 1500 pages, and they seem to be logically consistent and rationally laid out, even though they're inhuman and sick. A lot of thought and work went into it...and it's quite clearly meant to be the establishment of an ideology.<br /><br />So why is it that the underlying reason cannot be a belief in his own words? Why is _that_ off the table whilst other reasons aren't?Madshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05061888501151043115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-59389108809001222812011-07-26T13:49:53.496-07:002011-07-26T13:49:53.496-07:00@ jojjo
"History is full of atrocities of ma...@ jojjo<br /><br /><i>"History is full of atrocities of many kinds, meany of the worst has been religiously motivated."</i><br /><br />Humans have been committing atrocities against each other since before religion, before politics, before ideologies... before we even had spoken language.<br /><br /><i>"Luke 19:27 (kill all<br />unbelievers)"</i><br /><br />Wow, did you ever take that verse out of context. That line was spoken by a character in a parable (Luke 19:11-27). I suppose that could be inferred, but it's really a stretch.<br /><br /><i>"Luke 14:26 (hate all non Christians)"</i><br /><br />Yea, that verse loses a bit in translation and I really don't think that's what it's trying to say. I think the Amplified Bible does it better justice:<br /><br /><i>If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his [own] father and mother [in the sense of indifference to or relative disregard for them in comparison with his attitude toward God] and [likewise] his wife and children and brothers and sisters--[yes] and even his own life also--he cannot be My disciple.</i><br />Luke 14:26<br /><br /><i>"How about the fact that all the horrible laws of the Old Testament are condoned by Jesus in Mathew 5:19 and 5:17 among other places?"</i><br /><br />I have always been of the opinion that while the word of God is perfect, the transcriptions of man are not. I personally don't believe that the law as seen in modern Leviticus was as God originally gave it. That it had been added to and modified over time. Seeing as I work for a Kosher caterer, I can tell you that's it's still being added to even today. This is something Jesus hints at a few times without ever overtly saying. Jesus does, however, overtly say what the law should be:<br /><br /><i>36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”<br /><br /> 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” </i><br />Matthew 22:36-40The Almighty Narfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13476204880749031251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-53396725266472696982011-07-26T09:15:13.824-07:002011-07-26T09:15:13.824-07:00looking through these comments, i am happy with th...looking through these comments, i am happy with the number of people that seem to be willing to have a real discussion about this. however, its also frightening that some people are jumping on you over this, accusing you of scapegoating, "explaining" the difference between correlation and causation despite you being so clear about it, and telling you to go to hell.<br /><br />I am largely disappointed in the lack of critical thinking skills in the gaming community. perhaps your post was TL:DR for some, but that shouldn't justify totally missing your point.<br /><br />Scary that some gamers are so "knee-jerk" in condemning the ignorant critics from outside that attack the medium, that they've become so apt to jump on other gamers who are obviously not ignorant about such things.<br /><br />in short, you're right, bob, and its troubling that such is not obvious to everybody else. <br /><br />my sympathies for Oslo and the families of the victims.counterpointhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05281234724886956743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-53121166793027558352011-07-26T08:28:25.498-07:002011-07-26T08:28:25.498-07:00TAN/
"I don't know"
Good answer; in ...TAN/<br />"I don't know"<br />Good answer; in fact the only answer anyone can give right now, I don't know ether. I'not saying this was all Christianity's fault, far from it, but I think you are making it a bit too easy for yourself by just dismissing any notion that religion could inspire violence. History is full of atrocities of many kinds, meany of the worst has been religiously motivated. <br /><br />As for what's a true Christian, I do agree that one has to believe in certain tings, for example that Jesus is the messiah (God, son of God or both) and the Bible is his word, to call oneself that. Trouble is, the New Testament is not as rosy a you make it out to be. How about Luke 19:27 (kill all <br />unbelievers), or Luke 14:26 (hate all non Christians)? How about the fact that all the horrible laws of the Old Testament are condoned by Jesus in Mathew 5:19 and 5:17 among other places?jojjohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03564948960758809059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-2843674440134086422011-07-25T20:44:16.359-07:002011-07-25T20:44:16.359-07:00@ Alot of the people who've been going off abo...@ Alot of the people who've been going off about the pseudo-religo-political underpinnings and Bob's feelings/opinions about all this.<br /><br />I beleive we are losing sight of the point. The whys, whens, wheres, hows, its all heresay and when examined from an objective standpoint rather moot. The bottom line is that he -ENDED- pure, innocent lives for what are, I would -hope-, obviously fouly skewed reasons. Bob using this to "geton up on his soapbax" about what we can/could/should do about the inevitable shit storm and beyond is the POINT of his blog (and other numerous mediums). He has stated it before, and most likely have to do it again in the future, this is -his opinion- show. He isnt a newscaster, or an anchor man, he is a geek webceleb. If he had just talked about the incident, as horrendous as it is, without adding in his veiws this would've been a rather out of place post. Not to change topic, but this is the problem with the internet, people (pardon the puns) over- or anti- thinking about peoples opinions and then loosing uneeded angry pseudointellectual counterpoints, or angry flame respectivly. Bobs mentioned before he appreciates all feedback, negative or positive, but this topic I think is alittle more important then nitpicking about this monster's influences.<br /><br />Also, in the time writing this, I've had time to think about this "self-reflection" that you all seem to have very mixed feelings about. Let me try and work something out of Bob's logic (and bigman, if you feel like I'm wrong and being arrogant, by all means call me out). Its not that the FPS genre has a problem (besides the Brown epidemic) in and of itself. It is the fact that the monsters and madmen who have cited them as "training material" or "inspiration" or what-have-you -are- just the kind of person who get into the nasty and truely violent underpinnings of FPSs. Shake whatever excuse you want, the bottom line is that the majority FPSs are based in the idea of the bloodshed and neobarbarism of our time. Its a needed shade of grey that has colored not only gaming but the human race since the advent of armyman action figures and the BB gun. All Bob was saying (I surmise) was that we should sit down as a subculture and find out if we can do anything to prevent such conections in the future. The sad truth is, agree or disagree, and I'm sorry Bob but you arnt going to like this . . . there really ISNT anything we can do. Humans are a violent bunch, and wrap whatever package on it you want, every gamer at some point finds the prospect of killing digital badies a grand-old time. That being the case, the door to the blurred reality that leads to such attrocities will always be open. Its a "HARD TRUTH" but its one that we should all come to terms with and as Some Swedish Guy said way at the top of these comments . . . we better just invest in alot of raincoats and umbrellas people. The sleeping shitstorm of "games as a corrupting influence" is never going away, no matter how hard we fight . . . sorry.TheAmazingWeaslemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10066759377273747398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6031707140462457270.post-7727660845412622932011-07-25T17:40:59.134-07:002011-07-25T17:40:59.134-07:00Bob, I agree with you entirely here. But, perhaps ...Bob, I agree with you entirely here. But, perhaps the simplest and most receptive (not to mention scientifically "proper") way of putting it is as follows:<br /><br />"While there may indeed be a correlation between violence in military FPS videogames and these sorts of events, 'correlation' DOES NOT equal 'causation'."<br /><br />And then I'd probably add in a bit about how these individuals were clearly off their rocker to begin with - unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality - and their own mental instability perhaps is not only a greater correlating factor but also a causal factor in their actions, which violent videogames - in it of themselves - cannot (nor should they attempt to) take responsibility for.<br /><br />Please just remember to take this into account if/when you decide to make a video regarding this discussion. :)<br /><br />I'd like to give my deepest condolences to those most directly affected by the massacre, and will do all I can to contact my European relatives and see if they can give blood (I'm unsure if I can from overseas, vis-a-vis if there are any issues transporting blood that far and keeping it fresh as possible, but I will check immediately).Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11737026182223728822noreply@blogger.com